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The Black American Divide


Over the weekend, in several different settings, we were discussing Barry’s Pastor problem and some of what we found is that, among us younger black professionals, there is a lot of anger towards the older generation and a fear that Obama might lose because they can’t control their anger towards White America; an anger that we don’t share.
Obama’s Wright ties may be ‘big problem,’ some say – USATODAY.com
What’s new: Obama’s church fires back at pastor’s critics -USATODAY.com
Breitbart.com: Obama Decries Racial Rhetoric
Generation Obama? Perhaps Not. – New York Times

Men like Rev. Wright grew up in a different America; one where being black (regardless of economic station) was the primary factor in your American experience, so it makes sense that he sees things in shades of race. On the other hand, we have grown up in an America where having money is the primary factor. He grew up in a country that rejected his culture and demanded he do the same in order to be accepted. We grew up in a country where our culture is a major definer of American culture in general. His generation feels like they are “in” this country and ours feels like we “are” this country. We see racism and continue to fight it. We know America is pretty f’d up in a lot of ways, but we we love it and don’t want to hear anyone inside or outside damning it.

Many young blacks have rejected men like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton as voices because we don’t feel like we can be generalized as members of a group in need of representation. We view ourselves as individuals in a world where our priorities are unique enough to only be represented by ourselves. And even if we do seek representation, it isn’t by people who boil everything down to skin color. And yes, we understand that it is because of much of the efforts of Rev. Wright’s generation that we have the freedom to no longer be confined by our skin color, but that doesn’t absolve them (or whites of their generation) of their responsibility to evolve as the country has. It’s not too much to ask. Not all black people his age, or even older, feel that way. We all agreed that most older black people we’ve spoken to over the past 4 days are angry at Rev. Wright and do not excuse that talk as just “among friends” conversation.

Yes, some of this is just a generational disconnect that exist everywhere regardless of race. We don’t get them and they don’t appreciate that. Nothing new there. But in Rev. Wright’s words, I don’t hear perspective. I only hear racism, bitterness and hatred. Not just the words, but the angry way in which he says them. I wouldn’t want that anywhere near my president anymore than I’d want the President of Bob Jones University having the ear of W. Geez, you know I’m a Chicago girl down for Barry till the end, but the brother is already liberal enough to keep me awake at night. Then you’re gonna add this Black Panther speech from his influencers?

We all agreed we have older relatives who sound just like him and when we call them on their racism, they feel they’ve earned the right to be this way and they frankly don’t give a damn what it might cost us. The desire to express their anger is just too compelling to understand the consequences to the rest of us. And we’re supposed to just take it. We might lose a chance to have the first black president because of it. But you know, having a black president would put a wrench in that “America hates the black man” platform, so maybe they do care about the consequences. And no I am not absolving whites of their responsiblity to not lump us all under the umbrella of any one person good or bad, but that’s not what this post is about.

Just like we don’t share the views of our relatives who think that way, although we love them, none of us believe that this is how Barry views America even though he probably loves Rev. Wright. He’s older than us, but he’s still from that post-civil rights era and his American experience is more like ours. He also seems like a reasonable person to see things in just black and white. But what do we do about this rift that has been existing for a long time? If Wright’s rantings end up being the primary reason Obama tanks, the anger that already exists will only grow and its going to cost us even more.

  • Angela oh Angela!! You hit the nail on the head so hard that it's in orbit. Many young black professionals (myself included) do feel that rift in Black America. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I'm the son of two former Black Panthers. And I have a family full of 55 to 65 year old civil rights activists. They've been "pissed off" for a long time and can't help but lash out. I understand their anger but just don't share it at that level. I've been on the arse end of racism yet it hasn't clouded my view of white folks in the slightest. I just recognize that some people "roll down bigot's lane" at times and as long as they don't turn those bigoted beliefs into HARMFUL ACTIONS, I could care less.

    David Gergen made the point on a AC360 (CNN) about white and black still not seeing the real deal about each other. And I bet many white folks don't know about the divisions in the black community. We're a complex lot.
  • Ha! We all have those folks in our family and I think a lot of white people have the equivalent in theirs. And like you said, you just don't stop loving them.

    The recent State of Black America made it clear. These generalizations just don't work anymore because, good or bad, blacks have gone the way of every other race in the country, splitting by economic lines. Poor blacks are going in one direction and middle class blacks in another. The generational thing just another split and unfortunately, this dust up is a glaring example.
  • bluestatedude
    I have defected here from Daily Kos (or should we call it Obama Kos?). I am now looking for the same kind of alternative media in the talk radio arena (one that is not unapologetically pro-Obama and anti-HRC). I have given up listening to my usual podcasts like Young Turks, Rachel Maddow, and Ed Schultz because they are clearly biased against HRC. Can anyone suggest any alternatives? I don't want to have to resort to full blown conservative radio - there must be some other options?

    Thank you.
  • Idiosyncrat
    Angela, Tyrone,

    I get what you're saying. I really do. But at what point does someone's off-the-wall toxicity render them as someone the community should expunge?

    Tyrone, your parents were Black Panthers. Okay, fine. This may be a little OT, but just curious, has their thinking evolved since then? Regardless, you can't pick your parents. Or your crazy uncle. You can, however, pick the organizations and people you associate with. It would be one thing if Wright used to spew inflammatory rhetoric and has moderated -- but he hasn't. It's long been a component of who he is. And for Obama to attribute so much of his spiritual development to a man who espouses such hatred and then say "oh, i denounce his ideas" is laughably CYA-ish.

    I appreciate your insights to the black community, but I don't buy it as an excuse for Obama. Maybe the average joe can get away with it, but these kinds of things have serious ramifications for politicians. Will it sink Obama? There's too many other political and time factors at play here totally unrelated to this matter to say one way or another right now. But no amount of lipstick on this pig is going to make this matter anything but a black mark (no pun intended) on Obama's quest for the White House.
  • Idiosyncat,

    I get what you're saying. I really do. But at what point does someone's off-the-wall toxicity render them as someone the community should expunge?
    -------------------------------
    No where in my post will you see an apology for Obama. This scrutiny is justified. His words are awful and Obama heard those words and continued to go to that church. If my pastor said those things I would never go back to that church, but that doesn't mean I would desert him completely if I considered him family. I think the same would be for you if you had a relative that was racist and you call them on it every time they spout that crap, but you don't stop loving them.

    The question of expunging remains the issue for me. Our generation has been angry for a while that the older generation's obssession with race is affecting the future. To be honest, that generation has a lot of resentment towards us because we won't get on board with that stuff.

    Look at the controversy on the Hill between older black members of Congress and the younger ones like Artur Davis, Harold Ford, Jr. and others who cross the line and vote with Republican on things like taxes. They get hell for it.
  • Idiosyncrat
    Angela: "No where in my post will you see an apology for Obama."

    I didn't see the thrust of your piece as an apology, but I guess kinda read into the last paragraph... Maybe not. My apologies for going there.

    "I think the same would be for you if you had a relative that was racist and you call them on it every time they spout that crap, but you don't stop loving them."

    Sure. I've heard more than my share of sarcastic "schvatzah" comments from some of my older (Jewish) family members. Loved grandma just the same. But that's my grandma. If as an adult I had voluntarily joined a synagogue where the Rabbi made repeated mentions to a black conspiracy to keep down the Jews or any number of other issues that I significantly disagreed with, I couldn't have come to love that person in the first place. Therein lies the questionable judgment.

    Inter-generational and inter-affinity group conflict can be uncomfortable. I think that's something that most of us can relate to on some level. But it's a good thing. It's how we all grow as human beings.
  • Idiosyncrat,
    None of your friends have political views outside of the conventional wisdom?

    I have quite a few extremely rightwing friends that I argue with on occasion, but I would never think of ending my friendship with them over their political views.

    And besides all that, it's not unreasonable for a black person to look warily on the white establishment.
  • PaulSilver
    To me the challenge and opportunity is for the younger generations to suck up the courage and patiences to share their experience with the older generations. Likewise for the older generations to remember that they were young once and had different experiences than their parents. Wisdom is keeping the relevant old stuff while incorporating the useful new stuff.

    I am Jewish but disagree strongly with the Israeli government building in the West Bank. Eventually Israel will have to back away from that obsolete thinking.
  • Idiosyncrat
    Chris,

    My close friends have diverse opinions indeed. And we discuss things vigorously. But we're not talking about disagreeing about domestic/foreign policy, abortion, religion, or whether the Beatles are the greatest band living or dead to grace this fine planet (they are) here. We're talking about embracing a conspiratorial hater. Nobody fitting such a definition is a close friend or mentor of mine. But I understand these things are definitional, which I suppose says as much about me as it does about the likes of Mr. Wright...

    Nice clout score, btw :-)
  • Paul Silver - To me the challenge and opportunity is for the younger generations to suck up the courage and patiences to share their experience with the older generations.
    ---------------
    Absolutely and many of us do this, but I have to say that it isn't easy. Many of those people dealt with things my generation couldn't even imagine and they feel they've earned the right to be bitter. Within our community we are considered disrespectful and ungrateful when we tell them there is a different way or this is no different than white racism.

    I got into an argument with a 50 year old black man about what companies should do to increase diversity in their professional ranks. His first resort was to be angry, to point fingers, to place blame, make threats. My choice to put together a strategy that would lead us to more qualified minority professionals such as recruiting more at HBCUs, using search firms that specialize in minority candidates, partnering with black professional associations and encouraging more referrals from our minority employees.

    He said I was a coward and unappreciative of what it takes to get things done because white people don't want us in corporate America and won't listen unless you back them against the wall.

    Jesse Jackson Jr. even said that he and his father disagree on many issues because he father does it the old way and doesn't want to change.
  • Idiosyncrat,
    I'd first like to thank the lovely people at Captain Ed's now defunct blog for my nice clout score :-)

    In all seriousness, I think it's a little too easy to say Mr. Wright is a conspiratorial hater based on a couple of soundbytes. I'm sure the reality is more complex than the narrative the media is pushing (which you've apparently bought into).

    Are you willing to say right now, definitively, that Mr. Wright is an awful human being that Barack Obama should never associate himself with based on those few quotes you have?
  • Idiosyncrat,

    My parents thinking has evolved to a point. My parents did lean heavily into Marxism back in "the day" (as they've told me). But they scrapped Marxism a long time ago and believe in democracy (they've worked for the Democratic Party at times). But at times, they sound a lot like Reverend Wright. I'll sit there and listen, find myself nodding at some points, rolling my eyes at other points, etc. Same when I'm around their friends which are my friends. They're good people in their hearts. Lest I wouldn't be the charming BBQ wizard that I am today!

    I think Senator Obama has handled this wrong. This was a time to be human not political. I would have called a press conference and just laid it on the line:

    1. Reverend Wright is a dear friend.
    2. I don't agree with everything he says but he's my friend.
    3. I don't throw my friends under the bus unless they do something that warrants it and this isn't one of those times.
    4. My campaign speaks for itself. People from this Great Melting Pot have voted for me.
    5. Black America is complex. But Black America is part of America. So Black America's complexities are America's complexities. We need to work through all of our complexities.

    All he had to do was hire me in the beginning as an adviser and he would have been alright. LOL!

    ChrisWWW, just gave ya some positive clout. I've read ya over at the now defunct Captain's Quarters and those commenters did you wrong.
  • pacatrue
    Angela and t-steel, is it possible to say how common Wright's views are? Yeah, it probably is impossible. What I'm wondering is, if we rule out every black man or woman who knows someone like Reverend Wright, have we effectively ruled out most of black America? This is a completely open question and I have no idea of the answer.
  • Pacatrue - I'm not sure. It was a train of thought held by a lot of blacks a long time ago and it was justified. The government was their enemy in many ways. From legal slavery to Jim Crow. So it was a widespread belief. However, how many still feel like that after things have changed? I don't know any black people who don't know someone who they don't want to be invited over when their friend is visiting.
  • pacatrue,

    It probably is impossible. Yet I've always felt that a sizable amount we black folks know someone like Rev. Wright. It's a product of America's history between whites and blacks. But think about this question:

    If a sizable number of black people feel like Rev. Wright, why don't we see riots, rabble-rousing, etc on a fairly regular basis?

    The answer: black folks are patriotic Americans. We may feel a certain way at times but in the end, we are loyal to the country that we helped to build. For all the fire and brimstone from Minister Louis Farrakhan's mouth, what has he done? Congregations may get riled up by Rev. Wright, but they leave his church as continuing law-abiding, tax paying, patriotic citizens. That's the facts.
  • domajot
    Angela,

    So, a previous generation of blacks were angry in a way that is inapprpriate in today's world., and that makes you angry, int turn. What are you really angry about, then, that your grandparents didn't live under 2008 conditions?

    I can understand the frustration, but I can't undestand your anger.
    This reads to me like the ingratitude of the young to theri elders (Yes, I'm a grandmother, so I may have my own axe to grind, even though I"m white.)

    It seems to me that the anger of previous generations is what made your modern perspective .possible. I was around when police dogs, clubs and bullets met MLK's peaceful protests.. Why is the correct amount of anger to those events defined by those who have never faced equal dangers for the sake of their progeny?

    By showing understanding and appreciation, Obama is not showing a desire to emulate. Perhaps, he is simply saying 'thank you' for the benfits the modern generation reaps from the anger of its forebears. A good dose of anger was required to produce the resolve necessary even for peaceful protests, you know

    The world in another 20 years will be different again. Are you ready to be held accountable by the generation of that day for mot living now according to the conditions of the future?
  • pacatrue
    My question came from several corners. One of them is having grown up as a white Southerner. If you excluded every white Southerner who had a racist grandparent or uncle, you wouldn't end up with many people left. Part of growing up was learning to see the racism still lingering, knowing at least to question it, and being brave enough to challenge it. I was never a regular church goer, but I did attend periodically a Methodist Church. I never remember overt racism coming up in Sunday School or a regular service, but one summer I went on a bowling trip with the Church Youth Group, and suddenly the adult leader driving the van started telling N- jokes.

    I was shocked; I was embarassed; but I was too shy to say anything. This was the first time I'd ever joined the youth group, and I was basically there as a good friend's guest. This was my failure as a 13 year old, not knowing what to do.

    The point is just that if there was video in the early 80s like there is today, there could be a video out there of me sitting in a van, turning red-faced but silent, while racist jokes are flying. Now, I never did attend a youth event again, but I did go to other church services. Should I have stopped? My great-grandfather was once a minister there. A nearby building of offices and playground equipment has my last name on it. And, as I said, I have no recollection of these views appearing in regular sermons or in any other teachings. It would be cool to say that I went for the relationship with Christ, but I actually went because I liked hanging out eating fried chicken with my grandad and playing ping-pong with other kids.

    I'm not sure where I am going. One point is that I would be embarassed if that video of me in the van were to ever turn up. If the video was me as an adult, I would be ashamed. But I don't think it should exclude me from being a President if I have grown and learned since that time where I was too shy to speak. That's becoming an adult.

    What I don't know about the Obama/Wright case is, was Obama's error in judgment like mine as a young teen where I sat silently while hateful things were said? Or was he attending a church in which he was hardly aware of other ideas being spouted from time to time because there were so many other good associations?

    I guess in the end, I have a feeling that almost everyone has some experience in their background like myself or Obama. If the association with Wright is important to Obama, then the same should apply to me and the people of all races who've sat silent. I periodically think that white America's reaction to this is partly because they are familiar with their own inappropriate friends and can understand how it happens, but maybe aren't so accommodating to people who know the Wrights of the world. With their own great-uncle, they think, "oh, there goes the old coot again." With Obama, they are shocked! Shocked!
  • Thanks for clout Tyrone :-)

    It appears Obama will give a speech about Wright and the issue of race tomorrow:
    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Oba...

    (h/t Andrew Sullivan)
  • pacatrue
    Hey, and I had domajot pegged as a male of about 42. And she's a grandma! That's why the internet is cool.
  • Heru
    Being a tweener (old enough to remember the civil rights struggle, young enough to appreciate hip-hop) I can empathize with both sides of this discussion. However what the "Cosby Generation" fails to realize is that racism is only one of the mechanism in a system that seeks to limit the redistribution of wealth building opportunities for those that are poor and/or disenfranchised.

    Most Americans don't care what race or ethnicity someone is. They judge individuals on what that person brings to the table in terms of character. Scratch below the surface of the average American; be they white, African American, Latino or Asian and what you will find is a that most of us (Americans) want good schools for our children, job and/or business opportunities, crime free neighborhoods, freedom, justice and the liberty to pursue their dreams.

    Unfortunate as it is, America did not treat its darker hued citizens well for many centuries. But lest we forget, there we're Italians, Irish and Jews of European decent that we're treated with the same disdain, (sans the slavery element), that African Americans were subject to.

    Rev. Wright sees the world through his experiences. It appears to this writer that he may have embodied the negative energy that he experienced through the bigots and haters he has had to battle most of his life. He is warrior. Unfortunately for him the battlefield has changed and his tactics are no longer effective. Our challenge is no longer is civil rights. For the most part we have won that battle. Our challenge now is to bring opportunity and change to those that are hungry for opportunity and change.
  • domajot
    Pacatrue,

    You said what was on my mind, but I was conscious of running too long.

    I liked, particularly, your refence to how we hear things through different prisms. When the speaker is familiar, one of our own, we reflexively place what is spoken into a brad contextl When the speaker is the 'other', we take up combat positiions.

    P.S. So you thought I was a 42 year old man? Imagine how I felt when I saw Brian Lehrer from NPR radio on TV for the first time. I had been convinced he was a hunk!
  • domajot
    Sorry,
    That was supposed to be BROAD context, not brad context.
    I don't know any brads.
  • DLS
    Obama is supposed to make and give some big speech soon on race; who knows if it will bury the pastor issue once and for all or be a catalyst instead.
  • Idiosyncrat
    T-STEEL: Interesting insights about your parents. Thanks for sharing, but for what it's worth, I'd stick to blogging and BBQ and steer clear of entering presidential politics... ;-)

    CHRIS: Based on what I have read about Jeremiah Wright -- both now and months ago -- he is a demagogue and not someone whom I would embrace as a mentor and certainly not someone who if I was a politician I'd be foolish enough to embrace in the written word. I take it you disagree, and I'm cool with that. There's very little you've posted at this website that I've agree with and I'm not looking for any sort of kumbaya meeting of the minds on this... If it's easy for you to write off my concerns as swallowing the media line (something you don't seem to do be so flippant about when the media line happens to agree with you, I should note), by all means, please do that.

    Of potential interest is an in-depth story on Wright written in the New York Times by Jodi Kantor back in April:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/us/politics/3...

    Surprised it didn't pick up any traction then... I know Wright thought it was character assassination (surprise!), and I'm not exactly one to take the NYT word as gospel nowadays, but it paints a similar picture to other things I've read. And yes, Jodi Kantor is Jewish, but I'm on the BOD of the Global Zionist Conspiracy(TM) and a quick check of our roster doesn't show her listed...
  • domajot
    My last word on this, I promise:

    I just made the mistake of tuning in to CNN (for the first time in months): and I watched ttwo young and black commentators go after Obama. Their message was that Obama has to denounce and renounce, not just certain passages of Wright's speeches, but the Rev. himself and, possibly, the church (even though the church has many whites in the ocngregation, and whites may even be the majority, if a census was taken).
    The woman, without blushing, prefaced her comments by saying she hadn't actually read the offensive sermons in question. !!!!!!!

    The whole civil rights movement just got stabbed in the back, and the knowledge base on the topic of race relations, black history and vcvil rights is shrinking, not expandidng. Either that or commentators who are particularly ignorant about the topics on which they expound are in high demand.


    I feel as if I'd been caught in a time warp and had been transproted back to the '60's.
    People are obviously being hired as commnetators for their screaming ability, and no knowledge of the topic they are opining on is required.
  • Obama is supposed to make and give some big speech soon on race; who knows if it will bury the pastor issue once and for all or be a catalyst instead.

    Well DLS, it will promise to be good theater. One thing we Americans are ultra skilled at creating.
  • Jim_Satterfield
    Did anyone see the statement by the church that pointed out that the Rev. Wright had preached for over 240,000 minutes just in his Sunday sermons? That amount doesn't include weekday services, holiday services or any talks he might have given outside of the church. They felt that too take only the quotes that have been used (Let's be honest about the target.) against Obama and use them to attempt to define both Wright and his church wasn't terribly fair or reasonable.
  • Domajot - This reads to me like the ingratitude of the young to theri elders (Yes, I'm a grandmother, so I may have my own axe to grind, even though I"m white.)
    --------------------
    Which is the usual response I get from the older generation. But you're wrong. As I wrote in the post, we are well aware that the reason we don't have to focus on race is because of the work of that generation. But things change and certain methods are not only no longer ineffective, but now detrimental.

    Domajot - Why is the correct amount of anger to those events defined by those who have never faced equal dangers for the sake of their progeny?
    -----------------------
    Your generation did it. So does ours and so will the next one. The generation coming to power (regardless of race) will redefine the culture, the values and the methods of communication. That's just reality. We've never said you can't be angry. We are angry too. However, we believe that there are much more productive and effective ways of expressing that anger than yelling out ridiculous things like the GOVERNMENT CREATED HIV to kill black people.


    Domajot - By showing understanding and appreciation, Obama is not showing a desire to emulate. Perhaps, he is simply saying 'thank you' for the benfits the modern generation reaps from the anger of its forebears.
    -----------------
    If you read the post, this is why I said he will not desert the pastor and I wouldn't expect him too.

    Domajot - A good dose of anger was required to produce the resolve necessary even for peaceful protests, you know
    -----------------------
    As I said it was appropriate then and justified, but it isn't any longer. Whether you are white or black from that era, you have a responsibilty to evolve just as the country has.

    Domajot -The world in another 20 years will be different again. Are you ready to be held accountable by the generation of that day for mot living now according to the conditions of the future?
    --------------------
    Absolutely. And I'm also ready to adjust my communication style to the way that best furthers the interest of black people 20 years from now if that style is different than it is now. My objective is progress.

    Wright continues to want to "fight the power," but the only result will be keeping the power white.
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