Hmmmmm. Wonder how many logos and patents I can “hold” in a 5 story building.

So…the folks saying that we need ways to adapt are right. How? Universal health care. Truly affordable housing (Develop new construction technologies to enable this. It's really the only way.). Affordable higher education and job training. Unemployment benefits that last long enough for people to take advantage of that education and job training to change jobs/careers. Ah, heck. Let's be honest and admit that if someone has lost their job they have no money to pay for education and if you just give them loans they won't be able to repay them at starting wages given what the rest of their financial situation will probably be like. So if that education isn't free it probably won't be affordable for many who need it the worst. Anything else?

A: Their jobs at home were relocated from Mexico and Central America to China.”

Lol really? The housekeeping, janitorial, gardening and farming was outsourced to China?

This problem will only work itself out with time, as these sweatshop nations evolve into places with labor laws and prosperity for the workers, increasing the costs of doing business with them. Or, manufacturing laborers here making noticably less than before, or both.

Bonus morsel for thought:

Q: Why are so many Hispanics coming here from Mexico and Central America?

A: Their jobs at home were relocated from Mexico and Central America to China.

And no, I'm not suggesting Chinese or Japanese or Canadian companies pay US taxes on sales to their own populace. But there's no excuse for US taxes owed to be deferred for overseas subsidiaries but not for all-American companies. What a pathetic disincentive for American entrepreneurs.

And much of this is not even real outsourcing; it's outright tax evasion. I know they're efficient, but who could imagine that over 12,000 US companies could have their corporate headquarters in this five story building in the Caymans. What kind of operations do you suppose they can all get done in there? Times article on that HERE.

ChrisWWW, that's exactly what I did. Oops. lol

Slamfu, I'm open to ideas on how to keep American manufacturing and other business operations competitive. But it's just as 'unfair' to allow–nay, incentivize–American industries to die while we borrow a billion dollars a day from China then give 80% of it back to buy their goods. Not to pick only on China, but by kowtowing to multinational companies to the point that China becomes our banker and our manufacturing base cannot bode well for our workers or home-grown companies.

I agree with you that we need to address labor and environmental standards first, and that in itself will raise the cost of imports, as it should.

Finally, casual, clever use of figures to talk of manufacturing employment rather than manufacturing. China is, as we did, becoming massively more efficient in manufacturing, making more with fewer workers. HERE is a chart of China's manufacturing productivity.

I'm aware its not a communist only problem. I was actually highlighting that it was exploitation by those who had the power led to the creation of communism in the East. In the west we had a more moderate approach of labor unions that allowed workers to deal on an even footing with manufacturers and employers without changing gov't styles.

Capitalism out of control is exactly what you get in these industrial booms. Without either regulation or organization you have an unfair situation. Those who are buying the labor have way too much clout vs. those who are supplying the labor. This undermines the basic tenet of the free market system, and unfairness ensues.

I seriously disagree with your plan to simply apply a tax on the companies that would offset the savings they are getting by going overseas. First off, how do you gauge that? Second, its just reactionary and unfair. Third, it does nothing to address the real problem, that these 3rd world production nations have no labor laws or workers rights. And your last premise, that

“Any company that doesn't like it can just forgo the American market, and you know they won't.”

is forgetting the fact that once the costs of a manufacturers goods rise, they won't have to abandon the American market, it will abandon them. People buy Wal-marts stuff because its cheap. If its no longer cheap, they go elsewhere and all you've done is open the market to foreign companies to come in an scoop up the market share. Of course you can offset them with more taxes, but now you have a situation of the gov't simply applying taxes, hoping they are doing it just right to balance this precarious situation, again without affecting the labor issues of other nations and asking taxpayers to pay more for stuff.

When it comes to policy implementation, of course, everything can't be done at once. However, it is important that people understand how each separate issue fits into the broad picture. You wouldn't teach math, without a basic understanding of how numbers make up sums, would you?

When we debate each issue as the be-all and end-all, we lose sight of its significance.

The economic illiteracy of the US public is alarming. It is what allows foolish political panders (I'll renegotiate NAFTA on my terms in 6 months or we'll withdraw!) and simplistic “solutions”, e.g.

“Change the rules. Make sure every company pays as much in taxes as if all its manufacturing, marketing, R&D, clinical trials, IP holdings and everything else is onshore.”

to sound less than absurd. In the above proposal, for example, would we also require that foreign companies pay taxes to the US government–at US tax rates–on all their profits and royalties earned outside the US? Will Toyota be paying US tax revenue on its Japanese operations? Ford and GM would be. If foreign companies don't have to do so, wouldn't that put US companies at a bit of a competitive disadvantage? Talk about destroying US jobs . . .

As for trying to wrap all of the issues together and look for an integrated solution to them all, well, good luck with that. These issues are not completely independent, e.g. the cost of providing health care is part of the cost of US automakers' vehicles but is absorbed by the government in France and the UK. However, trying to address them all simultaneously is, imho, not possible. It introduces so many options and permutations that consensus will never happen. It would be worse than the chaos that would result from scrapping all US laws at once and trying to get people to agree on what new laws should replace them. Or for that matter, scrapping the US tax codes completely and trying to get agreement on what should replace them.

There's a reason politics spends most of the effort nibbling around the edges of issues, and not blazing new trails.

It's unfortunate that the debate didn't even touch on this aspect. We are debating issues one by one , but they are all part of the same picture: health care, the soaring cost of education, the housing crises, the south-facing economy, the national debt, cash strapped local governments, etc. etc., it's all part of the same game. Simplistic answers like 'no taxes' or 'renegotiate' won't do the trick.

I would love to hear a politician, any politician, address the issue in a holistic, nuts and bolts, pragmatic and non-ideologogical way. Seeing what we can learn from Ireland, would be one place to start, if we acknowlege the primacy of job creation.
Then let's see how our health care fiasco ties into job creation. and proceed from there, step by step.

To succeed, we need buy-in from everyone, and to make promises for one social group at a time, adapting the promises accordingly, is not helpful. I think politicians would be amazed how adult voters can be if they are addresed as such. Explain the problems, present a holistic vision for a solution without promising the moon and the stars, and we'll get it! Stick to emply slogans, and you;ll divide us into warring camps, stuck in a forever stalemate.

It's the election season, of course, and I'm foolish to expect other than what I hear.
Unfortuantely, the election season never seems to end.

Will the pragmatist in the nation ever stand up?

What to do? Change the rules. Make sure every company pays as much in taxes as if all its manufacturing, marketing, R&D, clinical trials, IP holdings and everything else is onshore. Wipe out the advantage for trashing local companies. Any company that doesn't like it can just forgo the American market, and you know they won't.

What do we do? Encourage labor unions in other nations. They have to go thru the same brutal process of labor organization the west had to go thru in the 19th and 20th centuries. Likely even more brutal in places like China and Burma. I find it funny that the conditions that birthed communism in the first place are being so closely repeated in Communist China. Workers paradise my ass.

Hey *sniff* I have -5 “clout” here. Should I just bugger off?

I am no expert but I suspect that these business can adjust their US taxes downward by expensing and capitalizing their investments in moving operations offshore.