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Michelle Obama: Those Who Say: “I Ain’t Voting For No Nigger”
Feb 21st, 2008 | 131 responses
I hoped it wouldn’t come into being. But, in my bones I knew this was coming. But, it was still like taking an unexpected gut-shot to the spirit.
I was at a Starbucks yesterday, not a normal occurrence for me. I mostly stay in the cave. But, as I’ve mentioned here on TMV before, I am trying to learn to draw. So, I went with my conte and pages to draw passersby out the window at Starbucks.
… and there at a table, four men were discussing the remark that Michelle Obama made about being proud of her country for the first time in her adult life…
Suddenly one of the four men burst out loudly: “I ain’t voting for no nigger!”
The entire Starbucks of all women patrons and wait-staff went into stop-motion. Silence. Were these guys miscreants, mentally-ill wanderers? No. They appeared to be just four businessmen, two middle-aged, two younger, talking out of their minds over their coffee cups, and laughing about ‘niggers.’
I sensed that if, “I ain’t voting for no nigger,” is said boldly by one person in a public place, by someone who rightly or wrongly feels no fear of confrontation or retaliation, then you can be sure, it is being said aloud elsewhere by thousands more.
Certainly there is much talk today about ‘what Michelle Obama’ said, and really meant. Many kinds of talk and opinion… various people have been discussing or debating or just flatly carrying on about what Michelle Obama meant or didn’t mean, and weighing in on her character, brainpower, heart, or lack of such, etc. (Her husband, later said she meant her words more narrowly with regard to the political process wherein people stood up for change.)
My thoughts however, keep returning to another matter entirely. I’m not new to scabrous words. This man’s outburst at Starbucks is not the first, but merely the elevendy-millionth time as a woman from a minority group myself, I’ve heard such or been felled by such words personally.
BUT, especially since being flash-shot by this man at Starbucks bellowing about “a nigger only gonna be president over my dead and burning body,” ….I rode the Time Machine back over the many decades I’ve be blessed to live thus far, and I see, with immediacy, how far we’ve come in this nation… meaning, that yes, any of us minority persons can be objected to publicly nowadays, and called names out loud, in print, in front of and behind backs….
but NOT immediately and with full looking away by all authorities and cronies, be dragged to the dark of the woods and dealt an ‘inch of one’s life’ beating, or death with finality, there…
when I count the changes of consciousness in law enforcement in many parts of our country, the changes in appellate court sight and insight, the plethora of ways eye-witness news is nowadays availed and delivered, the tireless souls who keep driving for justice for those unjustly treated….
then I am reminded for the uncountable-eth number of times in my life, that such as this man’s outburst at Starbucks, may in fact, represent progress.
Many of us wish, deeply, for FAR more than this kind of ‘progress’ for all of us on earth. But, I think strongly we have to also count even the smallest progressions. 5% here, 2.5 % there, .01% over there: They begin to add up to substance and movement. Some think ‘change’ is something that happens all at once. Most often not. Small increments, whole walls assailed by water time and again, give way. Water can and will wear through stone.
I don’t know that I can ever embrace ‘niggerspicswaztikajapwhiteykike’ talk as some mere cultural oddity. But I find it better, if such can be said, to see disgust and hatred and fear above ground in full daylight, even at such a usually phlegmatic Starbucks, than hidden and larded away in secrecy, wrapped with rage and viper’s breath, and acted out on innocent others in the dark.
Whether via the internet, in public places, or in private… I’d count this public marking of where levels of inhumanity still thrive, and in the most BANAL of places, as a significant veering away from ‘what once was’ considered the only option: The deadly one.
I grew up mere miles from where the KuKluxKlan was founded. It used to be Death of any person deemed insulting, unworthy, irritating, and/or expendable just for the fact that they lived, walked, spoke, thought as they do… all dispatching of persons by brutal means done in secret, undercover, away from ‘do-gooders’ and the ‘misguided’ who would risk their lives to intervene in such injustice.
Yes, it’s different now. Not secret. Easy to mark with red flares. Easy to note. Yet, still in need of vigilance.
Maybe it’s an ultimate irony that the screed-fest unleashed by some regarding Mrs. Obama’s words, perhaps poorly-fleshed out by her at the time… is actually an improvement, a seeming toothless one, over the immediate death sentence that used to be pressed on any outspoken person, poor white, black, Latino, or other.
Maybe at last a significant majority understands and holds to the idea, all posturing to the contrary aside, that bridges have never been made for hanging people, but that bridges are meant to hold both sides in even tension… so that people can cross to the other side, so that people can know and see what they have not known or beheld before… something new, something different, and hopefully something usefully good.
I know you’re maybe wondering what I said to the four men at the table. They were so close to my table I could have reached out and touched two on the shoulder. In moments like those, I think any sane person would have acted like I did. I thought, Why me, God? How come no one else is saying anything? Heartbeat, heartbeat. Then I thought, How do I know they aren’t going to beat me up outside? Heartbeat, heartbeat. Besides, I likely can’t change their minds about this or anything else. Then I heard my grandmother speaking to me: You can never tell outcomes; just speak.
I didn’t think anymore then. I just gulped and smiled sweetly and leaned directly toward the men, excusing myself, saying that I was sorry, but I couldn’t help but overhearing their conversation and I just wanted to make sure it was okay that I was sitting near them, for I have black blood, like most Latino Catholics who once were Jews from Moorish Spain, not to mention the African slave trade to the east coast of Mexico in the 1500s and 1600s.
Heartbeat, heartbeat.
The men stared me up and down. Silence.
Then, one man: You don’t look black.
I said Yes, there are a lot of people who carry black blood who don’t look like they do. I said, “But, we’re hidden everywhere. Especially in lighter-skinned people.” (I wasn’t going to say this next, but I could hear my grandmother goading me, Say it, say it aloud. So, I did…) “Like you and me, for instance…”
Your Dr E, I am afraid, went on then. On and on. Do you ever have those moments where you can’t stop speaking even though another part of you is going, stop stop, you’re going to get us in trouble….but there’s yet a strong imperative to speak, one way beyond the merely human…
So, I told the men words pretty close to these ……
You never know who is what. Why, one of my daughters was talking to me about mitochondrial DNA the other day and she said that you can now test the males of the family and find out all kinds of things about their blood lines, and it is becoming less and less expensive to do so, and soon, wouldn’t that be something, likely many people are going to be quite surprised about their actual bloodlines, but you know, maybe that will be helpful and bring us more together and….
The men squinted and kind of went blinkless while I was riffing, and suddenly they all seemed to remember they had a very important group appointment all the way across town and were late and they packed up their briefcases and took their coffee with them and actually left before I was done with my last sentence.
I don’t know, maybe words can act like an exorcism without meaning to. I packed up and left a minute after the men pulled away, just kept my eyes down and got into my pickup, thinking a little insanely, ‘my work must be done here.’
Was anything accomplished? I don’t know. Likely I’ll never know. But maybe 1% here or there, in someone other than the four men, maybe someone who overheard, but maybe one of the men in his right heart will remember a snippet of what was said years from now and it will be a blessing on him, or maybe someone who hears the story here….
All I know for now about Michelle Obama or anyone else, is, I ain’t voting for no good soul to go silent. Even when they have to call on extra cojones or ovarios from the angels in order to speak about what some deem, unspeakable.
________
Columnist Shaun Mullen here on the differing kinds of expression blogwise re Michelle Obama’s statement.
Also see Amba’s excellent commentary and wide ranging referencese to various reactions re Michelle Obama’s recently released undergraduate thesis.
131 Responses to “Michelle Obama: Those Who Say: “I Ain’t Voting For No Nigger””
just a note: There has been a comment made here overnight that has now been removed by TMV administrators. It was unacceptible according to TMV's commenting rules, (see #5 in this instance) which are listed below. Thank you.
dr.e
fwd:
The Real Barack Obama
Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:06 AM
By: Ronald Kessler
Michelle Obama’s comment that, for the first time in her adult life, she feels proud of America helps crystallize who Barack Obama is.
To be sure, the wife of a candidate is perfectly free to have views that are distinct from her husband’s. But on a matter that is so fundamental to one’s being as love of country, it is difficult to imagine that Michelle Obama would publicly twice make such a statement suggesting disdain for America unless she felt it comported with her husband’s views.
Equally important, her statement aligns perfectly with the hate-America views of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Barack Obama’s minister, friend, and sounding board for more than two decades. On the Sunday following 9/11, Wright characterized the terrorist attacks as a consequence of violent American policies. Four years later, Wright suggested that the attacks were retribution for America’s racism.
“In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01,” Wright wrote in his church magazine Trumpet. “White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just ‘disappeared’ as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns.”
Wright has been a key supporter of Louis Farrakhan, and in December, honored the Nation of Islam leader for lifetime achievement, saying he “truly epitomize[s] greatness.”
Farrakhan has repeatedly made hate-filled statements targeting Jews, whites, America, and homosexuals.
Those who think two of the closest people to Obama could publicly make anti-America statements unless Obama himself felt that way, are fooling themselves. To date, Obama has proven himself to be nothing more than a great orator, rendering the statements of those around him even more important in illuminating his true character and agenda. During his Senate career, he skipped 17 percent of the votes and sponsored only one bill that became law. That bill was to promote “relief, security, and democracy in the Democratic Republic of Congo.”
Bereft of official accomplishments, Obama has distinguished himself mainly by being against measures that protect American security, such as finishing the mission in Iraq. If we were to leave Iraq quickly, as Obama vows he would do, it would become a launch pad for al-Qaida attacks on the U.S.
Obama avoided voting on extending the Protect America Act, thus putting America at risk when immediate interception of terrorist communications is required. Last August, Obama voted against a measure that would have allowed the U.S. to continue to monitor overseas conversations of terrorists like Osama bin Laden without first obtaining a warrant.
If his radical vote had prevailed, bin Laden would have been given the same rights as Americans.
To this day, Obama has not distanced himself from most of Rev. Wright’s comments. In a statement supposedly issued to address the matter, Obama ignored the point that his minister and friend had spoken adoringly of Farrakhan and that Wright’s church was behind the award to the Nation of Islam leader. Instead, as outlined in a Jan. 17 Newsmax article, he disingenuously claimed he thought the magazine bestowed the award on Farrakhan for his efforts to rehabilitate ex-prisoners.
Neither Wright’s encomiums about Farrakhan nor the Trumpet article mentions ex-prisoners.
Similarly, after John McCain’s wife Cindy responded to Michelle Obama’s remarks by telling a Wisconsin rally, “I have, and always will be, proud of my country,” Barack Obama told a radio interviewer that his wife did not say what people think she said. He then proceeded to rewrite her comments, claiming that she had meant she was encouraged by the “large numbers of people” who have gotten involved in the political process. Michelle Obama then made a similar revision of her remarks.
In her speech in Milwaukee, Michelle Obama said flatly, “For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country, and not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change.”
And what has been wrong with America up to now? That it gave Michelle the opportunity to attend Princeton and Harvard Law School? That it gave Barack Obama the chance to attend Columbia University and Harvard Law School and become a U.S. senator making more than $1 million a year from book royalties?
Was it that America stopped Nazi Germany from continuing to murder millions of Jews? That America has provided Africa and other countries with $15 billion to combat the spread of AIDS/HIV and that another $30 billion is on the way? That 46 percent of all Americans classified by the Census Bureau as poor own their own homes, 76 percent of them have air conditioning, and 75 percent of them have at least one car? Or that America allows us to express our views freely without fear of being put in jail, as is the case in Russia?
A lawyer, Michelle Obama is perfectly capable of expressing herself precisely. In fact, she spoke from a written speech.
Those who do not want to believe she meant what she said — and that Barack Obama could not be so close to Rev. Wright if he did not himself believe in much of what he has said — are in denial.
The real Barack Obama is starting to emerge, and for those of us who are grateful to America for everything it represents, it is not a pretty sight.
Ronald Kessler is chief Washington correspondent of Newsmax.com. View his previous reports and get his dispatches sent to you free via e-mail. Go here now.
© 2008 Newsmax. All rights reserved.
fwd:
The Real Barack Obama
Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:06 AM
By: Ronald Kessler
Michelle Obama’s comment that, for the first time in her adult life, she feels proud of America helps crystallize who Barack Obama is.
To be sure, the wife of a candidate is perfectly free to have views that are distinct from her husband’s. But on a matter that is so fundamental to one’s being as love of country, it is difficult to imagine that Michelle Obama would publicly twice make such a statement suggesting disdain for America unless she felt it comported with her husband’s views.
Equally important, her statement aligns perfectly with the hate-America views of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Barack Obama’s minister, friend, and sounding board for more than two decades. On the Sunday following 9/11, Wright characterized the terrorist attacks as a consequence of violent American policies. Four years later, Wright suggested that the attacks were retribution for America’s racism.
“In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01,” Wright wrote in his church magazine Trumpet. “White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just ‘disappeared’ as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns.”
Wright has been a key supporter of Louis Farrakhan, and in December, honored the Nation of Islam leader for lifetime achievement, saying he “truly epitomize[s] greatness.”
Farrakhan has repeatedly made hate-filled statements targeting Jews, whites, America, and homosexuals.
Those who think two of the closest people to Obama could publicly make anti-America statements unless Obama himself felt that way, are fooling themselves. To date, Obama has proven himself to be nothing more than a great orator, rendering the statements of those around him even more important in illuminating his true character and agenda. During his Senate career, he skipped 17 percent of the votes and sponsored only one bill that became law. That bill was to promote “relief, security, and democracy in the Democratic Republic of Congo.”
Bereft of official accomplishments, Obama has distinguished himself mainly by being against measures that protect American security, such as finishing the mission in Iraq. If we were to leave Iraq quickly, as Obama vows he would do, it would become a launch pad for al-Qaida attacks on the U.S.
Obama avoided voting on extending the Protect America Act, thus putting America at risk when immediate interception of terrorist communications is required. Last August, Obama voted against a measure that would have allowed the U.S. to continue to monitor overseas conversations of terrorists like Osama bin Laden without first obtaining a warrant.
If his radical vote had prevailed, bin Laden would have been given the same rights as Americans.
To this day, Obama has not distanced himself from most of Rev. Wright’s comments. In a statement supposedly issued to address the matter, Obama ignored the point that his minister and friend had spoken adoringly of Farrakhan and that Wright’s church was behind the award to the Nation of Islam leader. Instead, as outlined in a Jan. 17 Newsmax article, he disingenuously claimed he thought the magazine bestowed the award on Farrakhan for his efforts to rehabilitate ex-prisoners.
Neither Wright’s encomiums about Farrakhan nor the Trumpet article mentions ex-prisoners.
Similarly, after John McCain’s wife Cindy responded to Michelle Obama’s remarks by telling a Wisconsin rally, “I have, and always will be, proud of my country,” Barack Obama told a radio interviewer that his wife did not say what people think she said. He then proceeded to rewrite her comments, claiming that she had meant she was encouraged by the “large numbers of people” who have gotten involved in the political process. Michelle Obama then made a similar revision of her remarks.
In her speech in Milwaukee, Michelle Obama said flatly, “For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country, and not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change.”
And what has been wrong with America up to now? That it gave Michelle the opportunity to attend Princeton and Harvard Law School? That it gave Barack Obama the chance to attend Columbia University and Harvard Law School and become a U.S. senator making more than $1 million a year from book royalties?
Was it that America stopped Nazi Germany from continuing to murder millions of Jews? That America has provided Africa and other countries with $15 billion to combat the spread of AIDS/HIV and that another $30 billion is on the way? That 46 percent of all Americans classified by the Census Bureau as poor own their own homes, 76 percent of them have air conditioning, and 75 percent of them have at least one car? Or that America allows us to express our views freely without fear of being put in jail, as is the case in Russia?
A lawyer, Michelle Obama is perfectly capable of expressing herself precisely. In fact, she spoke from a written speech.
Those who do not want to believe she meant what she said — and that Barack Obama could not be so close to Rev. Wright if he did not himself believe in much of what he has said — are in denial.
The real Barack Obama is starting to emerge, and for those of us who are grateful to America for everything it represents, it is not a pretty sight.
Ronald Kessler is chief Washington correspondent of Newsmax.com. View his previous reports and get his dispatches sent to you free via e-mail. Go here now.
© 2008 Newsmax. All rights reserved.
fwd:
The Real Barack Obama
Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:06 AM
By: Ronald Kessler
Michelle Obama’s comment that, for the first time in her adult life, she feels proud of America helps crystallize who Barack Obama is.
To be sure, the wife of a candidate is perfectly free to have views that are distinct from her husband’s. But on a matter that is so fundamental to one’s being as love of country, it is difficult to imagine that Michelle Obama would publicly twice make such a statement suggesting disdain for America unless she felt it comported with her husband’s views.
Equally important, her statement aligns perfectly with the hate-America views of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Barack Obama’s minister, friend, and sounding board for more than two decades. On the Sunday following 9/11, Wright characterized the terrorist attacks as a consequence of violent American policies. Four years later, Wright suggested that the attacks were retribution for America’s racism.
“In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01,” Wright wrote in his church magazine Trumpet. “White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just ‘disappeared’ as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns.”
Wright has been a key supporter of Louis Farrakhan, and in December, honored the Nation of Islam leader for lifetime achievement, saying he “truly epitomize[s] greatness.”
Farrakhan has repeatedly made hate-filled statements targeting Jews, whites, America, and homosexuals.
Those who think two of the closest people to Obama could publicly make anti-America statements unless Obama himself felt that way, are fooling themselves. To date, Obama has proven himself to be nothing more than a great orator, rendering the statements of those around him even more important in illuminating his true character and agenda. During his Senate career, he skipped 17 percent of the votes and sponsored only one bill that became law. That bill was to promote “relief, security, and democracy in the Democratic Republic of Congo.”
Bereft of official accomplishments, Obama has distinguished himself mainly by being against measures that protect American security, such as finishing the mission in Iraq. If we were to leave Iraq quickly, as Obama vows he would do, it would become a launch pad for al-Qaida attacks on the U.S.
Obama avoided voting on extending the Protect America Act, thus putting America at risk when immediate interception of terrorist communications is required. Last August, Obama voted against a measure that would have allowed the U.S. to continue to monitor overseas conversations of terrorists like Osama bin Laden without first obtaining a warrant.
If his radical vote had prevailed, bin Laden would have been given the same rights as Americans.
To this day, Obama has not distanced himself from most of Rev. Wright’s comments. In a statement supposedly issued to address the matter, Obama ignored the point that his minister and friend had spoken adoringly of Farrakhan and that Wright’s church was behind the award to the Nation of Islam leader. Instead, as outlined in a Jan. 17 Newsmax article, he disingenuously claimed he thought the magazine bestowed the award on Farrakhan for his efforts to rehabilitate ex-prisoners.
Neither Wright’s encomiums about Farrakhan nor the Trumpet article mentions ex-prisoners.
Similarly, after John McCain’s wife Cindy responded to Michelle Obama’s remarks by telling a Wisconsin rally, “I have, and always will be, proud of my country,” Barack Obama told a radio interviewer that his wife did not say what people think she said. He then proceeded to rewrite her comments, claiming that she had meant she was encouraged by the “large numbers of people” who have gotten involved in the political process. Michelle Obama then made a similar revision of her remarks.
In her speech in Milwaukee, Michelle Obama said flatly, “For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country, and not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change.”
And what has been wrong with America up to now? That it gave Michelle the opportunity to attend Princeton and Harvard Law School? That it gave Barack Obama the chance to attend Columbia University and Harvard Law School and become a U.S. senator making more than $1 million a year from book royalties?
Was it that America stopped Nazi Germany from continuing to murder millions of Jews? That America has provided Africa and other countries with $15 billion to combat the spread of AIDS/HIV and that another $30 billion is on the way? That 46 percent of all Americans classified by the Census Bureau as poor own their own homes, 76 percent of them have air conditioning, and 75 percent of them have at least one car? Or that America allows us to express our views freely without fear of being put in jail, as is the case in Russia?
A lawyer, Michelle Obama is perfectly capable of expressing herself precisely. In fact, she spoke from a written speech.
Those who do not want to believe she meant what she said — and that Barack Obama could not be so close to Rev. Wright if he did not himself believe in much of what he has said — are in denial.
The real Barack Obama is starting to emerge, and for those of us who are grateful to America for everything it represents, it is not a pretty sight.
Ronald Kessler is chief Washington correspondent of Newsmax.com. View his previous reports and get his dispatches sent to you free via e-mail. Go here now.
© 2008 Newsmax. All rights reserved.
SD: You live in your own world. There's no doubt blacks commit crimes (or, at least, are caught) at a higher rate than whites, but worldwide, that is a given for ANY group w lower poverty rates.
But to equate that with somehow whites having it as bad as blacks, or suffering from bigotry worse, is ridiculous. It's these arguments by exceptionalism that define your extremism. It's akin to pointing to the Tawana Brawley case and claiming that all blacks or most make up claims of racism. That's simply specious.
Dr O: Histrionics only play into the hands of folk like SD. You be Pavlov and make him woof.
SD: “Everyone's comments proved my point for me. Not one person claimed that they would confront sexist, racist, xenophobic, or bigoted statement if they were being made by blacks. “
For the record, I was 12 years old when I was, w/o knowledge, driven to a KKK rally on Long Island by the father of a friend of mine. I laughed out loud at the head ass, and called him an idiot. I got me, my friend, and his father booted out of the rally. When I was 17, I took a girl to an abortion clinic, was harassed by asses yelling and throwing ketchup around, and was assaulted, I kicked the primary assaulter in the teeth and he fell back down a flight of stairs, and the whole crowd of troglodytes was in horror that someone stood up to them.
When I was 16 a Puerto Rican girl was being assaulted outside a gay bar by white guys. I stabbed one, hit another w a tree branch, and the pussies fled.
When I was 6, an uncle of mine said positive things about MLK's death, in a crowd of LI Republicans. I asked him why he hated someone who was good?
I went to a HS that was 1/3 white, 1/3 black, 1/3 Latino. There was an incident when a whiney white kid who was actually on the football team, and twice my side, was so scared of this big, tall black girl w a bitch attitude, who was talking trash on white folk. Having grown up ~ blacks, I stood up to her, called her a dumb bitch, and when she tried to slap me, caught her arm, twisted it, and slapped her down. Like with the abortion nuts, the kids- white and black were stunned.
There are many other incidents- some which occurred in circumstances which I would have to invoke the 5th Amendment on, so I will leave it there.
Thus, stop acting like a deluded child.
SD: You live in your own world. There's no doubt blacks commit crimes (or, at least, are caught) at a higher rate than whites, but worldwide, that is a given for ANY group w lower poverty rates.
But to equate that with somehow whites having it as bad as blacks, or suffering from bigotry worse, is ridiculous. It's these arguments by exceptionalism that define your extremism. It's akin to pointing to the Tawana Brawley case and claiming that all blacks or most make up claims of racism. That's simply specious.
Dr O: Histrionics only play into the hands of folk like SD. You be Pavlov and make him woof.
SD: “Everyone's comments proved my point for me. Not one person claimed that they would confront sexist, racist, xenophobic, or bigoted statement if they were being made by blacks. “
For the record, I was 12 years old when I was, w/o knowledge, driven to a KKK rally on Long Island by the father of a friend of mine. I laughed out loud at the head ass, and called him an idiot. I got me, my friend, and his father booted out of the rally. When I was 17, I took a girl to an abortion clinic, was harassed by asses yelling and throwing ketchup around, and was assaulted, I kicked the primary assaulter in the teeth and he fell back down a flight of stairs, and the whole crowd of troglodytes was in horror that someone stood up to them.
When I was 16 a Puerto Rican girl was being assaulted outside a gay bar by white guys. I stabbed one, hit another w a tree branch, and the pussies fled.
When I was 6, an uncle of mine said positive things about MLK's death, in a crowd of LI Republicans. I asked him why he hated someone who was good?
I went to a HS that was 1/3 white, 1/3 black, 1/3 Latino. There was an incident when a whiney white kid who was actually on the football team, and twice my side, was so scared of this big, tall black girl w a bitch attitude, who was talking trash on white folk. Having grown up ~ blacks, I stood up to her, called her a dumb bitch, and when she tried to slap me, caught her arm, twisted it, and slapped her down. Like with the abortion nuts, the kids- white and black were stunned.
There are many other incidents- some which occurred in circumstances which I would have to invoke the 5th Amendment on, so I will leave it there.
Thus, stop acting like a deluded child.
SD: You live in your own world. There's no doubt blacks commit crimes (or, at least, are caught) at a higher rate than whites, but worldwide, that is a given for ANY group w lower poverty rates.
But to equate that with somehow whites having it as bad as blacks, or suffering from bigotry worse, is ridiculous. It's these arguments by exceptionalism that define your extremism. It's akin to pointing to the Tawana Brawley case and claiming that all blacks or most make up claims of racism. That's simply specious.
Dr O: Histrionics only play into the hands of folk like SD. You be Pavlov and make him woof.
SD: “Everyone's comments proved my point for me. Not one person claimed that they would confront sexist, racist, xenophobic, or bigoted statement if they were being made by blacks. “
For the record, I was 12 years old when I was, w/o knowledge, driven to a KKK rally on Long Island by the father of a friend of mine. I laughed out loud at the head ass, and called him an idiot. I got me, my friend, and his father booted out of the rally. When I was 17, I took a girl to an abortion clinic, was harassed by asses yelling and throwing ketchup around, and was assaulted, I kicked the primary assaulter in the teeth and he fell back down a flight of stairs, and the whole crowd of troglodytes was in horror that someone stood up to them.
When I was 16 a Puerto Rican girl was being assaulted outside a gay bar by white guys. I stabbed one, hit another w a tree branch, and the pussies fled.
When I was 6, an uncle of mine said positive things about MLK's death, in a crowd of LI Republicans. I asked him why he hated someone who was good?
I went to a HS that was 1/3 white, 1/3 black, 1/3 Latino. There was an incident when a whiney white kid who was actually on the football team, and twice my side, was so scared of this big, tall black girl w a bitch attitude, who was talking trash on white folk. Having grown up ~ blacks, I stood up to her, called her a dumb bitch, and when she tried to slap me, caught her arm, twisted it, and slapped her down. Like with the abortion nuts, the kids- white and black were stunned.
There are many other incidents- some which occurred in circumstances which I would have to invoke the 5th Amendment on, so I will leave it there.
Thus, stop acting like a deluded child.
[...] Michelle Obama: Those Who Say: I Aint Voting For No Nigger I hoped it wouldnt come into being. But, in my bones I knew this was coming. But, it was still like taking an unexpected gut-shot to the spirit. I was at a Starbucks yesterday, not a normal occurence for me. I mostly stay in the cave. But, as Ive mentioned here on TMV before, I am trying to learn to draw. So, I went with my conte and pages to draw passersby out the window at Starbucks. and there at a table, four men were discussing the remark that Michelle Obama made about being proud [...]
cosmoetica,
Since you used a string of anecdotes, I assume that they are acceptable. I work in healthcare. Virtually every hospital that I have business with has the problem that the black employees seem to believe that when they are talking to each other, that whites cannot hear them. In every large urban hospital, I have personally witnessed black employees using vulgar, racist, sexist, and xenophobic behavior, I have never seen a supervisor correct the black employees or any white/non-black patient confront the anti-social behavior.
I have see blacks spit on whites in the DC metro, on the side walk in DC, and in Union station. I have seen blacks taunt whites and asians on an almost daily basis on the DC metro. I have never, ever seen a white or Asian person confront the rude, anti-social, bigoted behavior of the blacks. Whties and Asians do want they have been taught: flee from the blacks and avoid them at all costs.
Dr Estes felt comfortable verbally accosting whites because the risk of physical violence was extremely low. However, a white person accosting black bigots on the Green LIne in DC is an open invitation for violence with all the rest of the blacks on the subway cheering on the perpetrators. See the rape in the Howard County Maryland public school. Blacks have learned that in attacking a white person by themselves that they can alibi each other. See the racial bus attacks in Baltimore.
You do not have to do back twenty years to reference Tawan Brawley. Baltimore in 2007 have an faked hate crime in their fire Department. Also see the Duke non-rape case.
cosmoetica,
Since you used a string of anecdotes, I assume that they are acceptable. I work in healthcare. Virtually every hospital that I have business with has the problem that the black employees seem to believe that when they are talking to each other, that whites cannot hear them. In every large urban hospital, I have personally witnessed black employees using vulgar, racist, sexist, and xenophobic behavior, I have never seen a supervisor correct the black employees or any white/non-black patient confront the anti-social behavior.
I have see blacks spit on whites in the DC metro, on the side walk in DC, and in Union station. I have seen blacks taunt whites and asians on an almost daily basis on the DC metro. I have never, ever seen a white or Asian person confront the rude, anti-social, bigoted behavior of the blacks. Whties and Asians do want they have been taught: flee from the blacks and avoid them at all costs.
Dr Estes felt comfortable verbally accosting whites because the risk of physical violence was extremely low. However, a white person accosting black bigots on the Green LIne in DC is an open invitation for violence with all the rest of the blacks on the subway cheering on the perpetrators. See the rape in the Howard County Maryland public school. Blacks have learned that in attacking a white person by themselves that they can alibi each other. See the racial bus attacks in Baltimore.
You do not have to do back twenty years to reference Tawan Brawley. Baltimore in 2007 have an faked hate crime in their fire Department. Also see the Duke non-rape case.
cosmoetica,
Since you used a string of anecdotes, I assume that they are acceptable. I work in healthcare. Virtually every hospital that I have business with has the problem that the black employees seem to believe that when they are talking to each other, that whites cannot hear them. In every large urban hospital, I have personally witnessed black employees using vulgar, racist, sexist, and xenophobic behavior, I have never seen a supervisor correct the black employees or any white/non-black patient confront the anti-social behavior.
I have see blacks spit on whites in the DC metro, on the side walk in DC, and in Union station. I have seen blacks taunt whites and asians on an almost daily basis on the DC metro. I have never, ever seen a white or Asian person confront the rude, anti-social, bigoted behavior of the blacks. Whties and Asians do want they have been taught: flee from the blacks and avoid them at all costs.
Dr Estes felt comfortable verbally accosting whites because the risk of physical violence was extremely low. However, a white person accosting black bigots on the Green LIne in DC is an open invitation for violence with all the rest of the blacks on the subway cheering on the perpetrators. See the rape in the Howard County Maryland public school. Blacks have learned that in attacking a white person by themselves that they can alibi each other. See the racial bus attacks in Baltimore.
You do not have to do back twenty years to reference Tawan Brawley. Baltimore in 2007 have an faked hate crime in their fire Department. Also see the Duke non-rape case.
Arf! Where's the drool cup?
Arf! Where's the drool cup?
Arf! Where's the drool cup?
Eellis, in the particular incident I witnessed, the police outnumbered the counter protesters (maybe 30 people altogether), who were all gathered in a knot at one point in the police line. I speak as an observer, not a participant, with a good vantage point on rising ground. The main body of MLK day marchers and attendees were at least a hundred yards away on the other side of the park, no where near the point of conflict. There was no impediment to dispersal of the people who were throwing stuff and yellling because there was no crowd behind them–TV trucks, random people watching the fun, yes, but no shoulder to shoulder mass.
The Police fired more than one volley of tear gas, and the counter protesters got a dose, too, but the initial volley was hail maried over the trees into a peaceful crowd.
Eellis, in the particular incident I witnessed, the police outnumbered the counter protesters (maybe 30 people altogether), who were all gathered in a knot at one point in the police line. I speak as an observer, not a participant, with a good vantage point on rising ground. The main body of MLK day marchers and attendees were at least a hundred yards away on the other side of the park, no where near the point of conflict. There was no impediment to dispersal of the people who were throwing stuff and yellling because there was no crowd behind them–TV trucks, random people watching the fun, yes, but no shoulder to shoulder mass.
The Police fired more than one volley of tear gas, and the counter protesters got a dose, too, but the initial volley was hail maried over the trees into a peaceful crowd.
Eellis, in the particular incident I witnessed, the police outnumbered the counter protesters (maybe 30 people altogether), who were all gathered in a knot at one point in the police line. I speak as an observer, not a participant, with a good vantage point on rising ground. The main body of MLK day marchers and attendees were at least a hundred yards away on the other side of the park, no where near the point of conflict. There was no impediment to dispersal of the people who were throwing stuff and yellling because there was no crowd behind them–TV trucks, random people watching the fun, yes, but no shoulder to shoulder mass.
The Police fired more than one volley of tear gas, and the counter protesters got a dose, too, but the initial volley was hail maried over the trees into a peaceful crowd.
My dear Superduperator,
You ask,
“Now, since you insisted on statistics, please provide references for your data that provdes that blacks do not commit crimes at a higher rate than whites.”
I don't believe I insisted on statistics, or was attempting to “provde” any particular point, except that statistics are irrelevant when you misuse them to prove a point that you a priori believe to true beyond doubt as an article of some misbegotten creed.
Occam had a razor, you got a funnel.
All human lineages trace back to Africa, thus, we are all in a sense African Americans, and many if not most African Americans have as many–or more–European ancestors–than they have directly from Africa.
When you peel a banana, it's still a banana. Peel the skin off a human, it's still the same bloody mess whatever the color of that skin.
You and I and Michelle Obama and every human being on Earth share all but one tenth of one percent of our DNA, of the human genome. Does that make you itch? It does me, sometimes, when I regard fellow members of my species, such as you.
My dear Superduperator,
You ask,
“Now, since you insisted on statistics, please provide references for your data that provdes that blacks do not commit crimes at a higher rate than whites.”
I don't believe I insisted on statistics, or was attempting to “provde” any particular point, except that statistics are irrelevant when you misuse them to prove a point that you a priori believe to true beyond doubt as an article of some misbegotten creed.
Occam had a razor, you got a funnel.
All human lineages trace back to Africa, thus, we are all in a sense African Americans, and many if not most African Americans have as many–or more–European ancestors–than they have directly from Africa.
When you peel a banana, it's still a banana. Peel the skin off a human, it's still the same bloody mess whatever the color of that skin.
You and I and Michelle Obama and every human being on Earth share all but one tenth of one percent of our DNA, of the human genome. Does that make you itch? It does me, sometimes, when I regard fellow members of my species, such as you.
My dear Superduperator,
You ask,
“Now, since you insisted on statistics, please provide references for your data that provdes that blacks do not commit crimes at a higher rate than whites.”
I don't believe I insisted on statistics, or was attempting to “provde” any particular point, except that statistics are irrelevant when you misuse them to prove a point that you a priori believe to true beyond doubt as an article of some misbegotten creed.
Occam had a razor, you got a funnel.
All human lineages trace back to Africa, thus, we are all in a sense African Americans, and many if not most African Americans have as many–or more–European ancestors–than they have directly from Africa.
When you peel a banana, it's still a banana. Peel the skin off a human, it's still the same bloody mess whatever the color of that skin.
You and I and Michelle Obama and every human being on Earth share all but one tenth of one percent of our DNA, of the human genome. Does that make you itch? It does me, sometimes, when I regard fellow members of my species, such as you.
SD:
'Since you used a string of anecdotes, I assume that they are acceptable. I work in healthcare. Virtually every hospital that I have business with has the problem that the black employees seem to believe that when they are talking to each other, that whites cannot hear them. In every large urban hospital, I have personally witnessed black employees using vulgar, racist, sexist, and xenophobic behavior, I have never seen a supervisor correct the black employees or any white/non-black patient confront the anti-social behavior.'
So, the point is that there are black assholes and white cowards- sort of like my riff on the white football player who was scared of a black chick I knocked on her ass. Boy, that's a real oddity in America- white folks scared of blacks and they hopping on it because it's their way of getting back at the assorted little racisms that occur every day. I've worked many years in many businesses, and there is always a glass ceiling for blacks, there are always blacks followed by security guards, even if in a suit and a man over 50.
Let's see, I've worked with many people- black, white Latino, Asian, and most of the men, even bosses, speak of females and genitalia and getting laid, make jokes about this group or that. So what you are telling me is that you NOTICE the black assholes, but don't notice the other groups' assholes.
This is what I mean by arguing by exceptionalism. And the fact you notice may have to do w that same sort of fear the white footballer showed.
'I have see blacks spit on whites in the DC metro, on the side walk in DC, and in Union station. I have seen blacks taunt whites and asians on an almost daily basis on the DC metro. I have never, ever seen a white or Asian person confront the rude, anti-social, bigoted behavior of the blacks. Whties and Asians do want they have been taught: flee from the blacks and avoid them at all costs.'
Spoken like a true Archie Bunker. I've known people of all groups taunt, curse, assault, and taunt others. I've known obnoxious militant queers who've taunted churchgoers, and vice-versa. A childhood friend of mine's cousin was one of a van full of white kids who beat 2 black kids nearly to death w a baseball bat (I was not there), but heard him bragging later. Do you realize how insulated and paranoid your argument is?
'Dr Estes felt comfortable verbally accosting whites because the risk of physical violence was extremely low. However, a white person accosting black bigots on the Green LIne in DC is an open invitation for violence with all the rest of the blacks on the subway cheering on the perpetrators. See the rape in the Howard County Maryland public school. Blacks have learned that in attacking a white person by themselves that they can alibi each other. See the racial bus attacks in Baltimore.'
I believe Dr. E said she was not comfortable. But, how did the people look? What age were they? I avoid all teen men or those in their early 20s, because pack-like behavior is a given- black, white, or whatever. Again, argument by exception.
'You do not have to do back twenty years to reference Tawan Brawley. Baltimore in 2007 have an faked hate crime in their fire Department. Also see the Duke non-rape case.'
I don't have to go to Baltimore. A guy in my own dept at work tried to BS a fake claim of racism because he was bitchy. He was Mexican. Shall I assume all Mexicans are self-centered little be-yotches?
SD:
'Since you used a string of anecdotes, I assume that they are acceptable. I work in healthcare. Virtually every hospital that I have business with has the problem that the black employees seem to believe that when they are talking to each other, that whites cannot hear them. In every large urban hospital, I have personally witnessed black employees using vulgar, racist, sexist, and xenophobic behavior, I have never seen a supervisor correct the black employees or any white/non-black patient confront the anti-social behavior.'
So, the point is that there are black assholes and white cowards- sort of like my riff on the white football player who was scared of a black chick I knocked on her ass. Boy, that's a real oddity in America- white folks scared of blacks and they hopping on it because it's their way of getting back at the assorted little racisms that occur every day. I've worked many years in many businesses, and there is always a glass ceiling for blacks, there are always blacks followed by security guards, even if in a suit and a man over 50.
Let's see, I've worked with many people- black, white Latino, Asian, and most of the men, even bosses, speak of females and genitalia and getting laid, make jokes about this group or that. So what you are telling me is that you NOTICE the black assholes, but don't notice the other groups' assholes.
This is what I mean by arguing by exceptionalism. And the fact you notice may have to do w that same sort of fear the white footballer showed.
'I have see blacks spit on whites in the DC metro, on the side walk in DC, and in Union station. I have seen blacks taunt whites and asians on an almost daily basis on the DC metro. I have never, ever seen a white or Asian person confront the rude, anti-social, bigoted behavior of the blacks. Whties and Asians do want they have been taught: flee from the blacks and avoid them at all costs.'
Spoken like a true Archie Bunker. I've known people of all groups taunt, curse, assault, and taunt others. I've known obnoxious militant queers who've taunted churchgoers, and vice-versa. A childhood friend of mine's cousin was one of a van full of white kids who beat 2 black kids nearly to death w a baseball bat (I was not there), but heard him bragging later. Do you realize how insulated and paranoid your argument is?
'Dr Estes felt comfortable verbally accosting whites because the risk of physical violence was extremely low. However, a white person accosting black bigots on the Green LIne in DC is an open invitation for violence with all the rest of the blacks on the subway cheering on the perpetrators. See the rape in the Howard County Maryland public school. Blacks have learned that in attacking a white person by themselves that they can alibi each other. See the racial bus attacks in Baltimore.'
I believe Dr. E said she was not comfortable. But, how did the people look? What age were they? I avoid all teen men or those in their early 20s, because pack-like behavior is a given- black, white, or whatever. Again, argument by exception.
'You do not have to do back twenty years to reference Tawan Brawley. Baltimore in 2007 have an faked hate crime in their fire Department. Also see the Duke non-rape case.'
I don't have to go to Baltimore. A guy in my own dept at work tried to BS a fake claim of racism because he was bitchy. He was Mexican. Shall I assume all Mexicans are self-centered little be-yotches?
SD:
'Since you used a string of anecdotes, I assume that they are acceptable. I work in healthcare. Virtually every hospital that I have business with has the problem that the black employees seem to believe that when they are talking to each other, that whites cannot hear them. In every large urban hospital, I have personally witnessed black employees using vulgar, racist, sexist, and xenophobic behavior, I have never seen a supervisor correct the black employees or any white/non-black patient confront the anti-social behavior.'
So, the point is that there are black assholes and white cowards- sort of like my riff on the white football player who was scared of a black chick I knocked on her ass. Boy, that's a real oddity in America- white folks scared of blacks and they hopping on it because it's their way of getting back at the assorted little racisms that occur every day. I've worked many years in many businesses, and there is always a glass ceiling for blacks, there are always blacks followed by security guards, even if in a suit and a man over 50.
Let's see, I've worked with many people- black, white Latino, Asian, and most of the men, even bosses, speak of females and genitalia and getting laid, make jokes about this group or that. So what you are telling me is that you NOTICE the black assholes, but don't notice the other groups' assholes.
This is what I mean by arguing by exceptionalism. And the fact you notice may have to do w that same sort of fear the white footballer showed.
'I have see blacks spit on whites in the DC metro, on the side walk in DC, and in Union station. I have seen blacks taunt whites and asians on an almost daily basis on the DC metro. I have never, ever seen a white or Asian person confront the rude, anti-social, bigoted behavior of the blacks. Whties and Asians do want they have been taught: flee from the blacks and avoid them at all costs.'
Spoken like a true Archie Bunker. I've known people of all groups taunt, curse, assault, and taunt others. I've known obnoxious militant queers who've taunted churchgoers, and vice-versa. A childhood friend of mine's cousin was one of a van full of white kids who beat 2 black kids nearly to death w a baseball bat (I was not there), but heard him bragging later. Do you realize how insulated and paranoid your argument is?
'Dr Estes felt comfortable verbally accosting whites because the risk of physical violence was extremely low. However, a white person accosting black bigots on the Green LIne in DC is an open invitation for violence with all the rest of the blacks on the subway cheering on the perpetrators. See the rape in the Howard County Maryland public school. Blacks have learned that in attacking a white person by themselves that they can alibi each other. See the racial bus attacks in Baltimore.'
I believe Dr. E said she was not comfortable. But, how did the people look? What age were they? I avoid all teen men or those in their early 20s, because pack-like behavior is a given- black, white, or whatever. Again, argument by exception.
'You do not have to do back twenty years to reference Tawan Brawley. Baltimore in 2007 have an faked hate crime in their fire Department. Also see the Duke non-rape case.'
I don't have to go to Baltimore. A guy in my own dept at work tried to BS a fake claim of racism because he was bitchy. He was Mexican. Shall I assume all Mexicans are self-centered little be-yotches?
I myself have black cousins, because some of my ancestors owned some of their ancestors. One of my cousins is Melba Pattillo, and if you don't know who she is, you can google it up. She certainly knows something about getting spat on, and walking through a hurricane of hateful verbal abuse.
I'm much prouder to claim her as a blood relative than I am my own great great grandfather who fought on the Confederate side in the Civil War.
I myself have black cousins, because some of my ancestors owned some of their ancestors. One of my cousins is Melba Pattillo, and if you don't know who she is, you can google it up. She certainly knows something about getting spat on, and walking through a hurricane of hateful verbal abuse.
I'm much prouder to claim her as a blood relative than I am my own great great grandfather who fought on the Confederate side in the Civil War.
I myself have black cousins, because some of my ancestors owned some of their ancestors. One of my cousins is Melba Pattillo, and if you don't know who she is, you can google it up. She certainly knows something about getting spat on, and walking through a hurricane of hateful verbal abuse.
I'm much prouder to claim her as a blood relative than I am my own great great grandfather who fought on the Confederate side in the Civil War.
Pack behavior–important point, cosmoetica. Facing down a pack. Getting caught between packs. Look 'em in the eye, address them directly, and move toward them, most–but not all–will flinch and back off. Like dogs, most humans are cowards and will not fight unless they're sure of winning–not on a rational level, but instinctually. A person who acts aggressively with the odds against is seen as, felt as, dangerous.
Pack behavior–important point, cosmoetica. Facing down a pack. Getting caught between packs. Look 'em in the eye, address them directly, and move toward them, most–but not all–will flinch and back off. Like dogs, most humans are cowards and will not fight unless they're sure of winning–not on a rational level, but instinctually. A person who acts aggressively with the odds against is seen as, felt as, dangerous.
Pack behavior–important point, cosmoetica. Facing down a pack. Getting caught between packs. Look 'em in the eye, address them directly, and move toward them, most–but not all–will flinch and back off. Like dogs, most humans are cowards and will not fight unless they're sure of winning–not on a rational level, but instinctually. A person who acts aggressively with the odds against is seen as, felt as, dangerous.
Superdestroyer wrote: “Dr Estes felt comfortable verbally accosting whites because the risk of physical violence was extremely low.”
dear Super destroyer. I agree there are many different kinds of conflicts, as you have mentioned, and many are unjust and wrong.
And, also, I think holding all these many different incidents altogether as 'same kind' no matter the factual aspects and details of all involved, makes it difficult to sort and address them with some usefulness in our larger culture.
To hold all levels of conflict together as though they all have the same underlying factors makes them into a non-differentiated issue that cannot be solved.
I think that's why so many commenters here are speaking of specific eyewitness: many of us are continuing to learn our ways through by trying to understand and analyze not just others, but also ourselves, our own reactions, too.
In this article, I wrote about 1% action/ influence or less, being countable as progress. That includes self-analysis. Without asking what stands behind my own fears, aversions, instant affront, in myself, as best I can, I don’t know that we can keep the more safe world, the more bridged world, we all somewhere in our lives, hope for.
If noting a problem in our culture is a small progress, if intervening in a problem to attempt to seed something useful and new, is a kind of small fastener for a new and better way, then self analysis, tightens those new fasteners… so that new ideas and trajectories can actually happen and continue to evolve.
That is what I would like to bless over all, Superdestroyer.
I do not invalidate your views of your experiences nonetheless.
You mentioned my 'feeling comfortable to accost white men…' I looked through my article and did not see anywhere that I referenced these four men as 'white' as you note in your comments. That's not the way I thought of them. I was snagged by their behavior, not by whatever race they might be.
I don’t know if they were 'white,' by whatever standard the dominant culture might apply. I can see how you might have assumed they were though. There is an odd almost collective idea in our culture that I think we might need be inoculated against… that if there's trouble, we might all jump to imagine it's between those who the news media perseverates on… either of the two sides understood night after night, as the current and ongoing 'alien other.'
But, the men were, light-skinned. And I have no idea if they were white, as I reflected in my article. Using a race moniker for any individual, has for decades in our country, been pretty debatable as we find via DNA testing that so many are mixtures of many backgrounds… as I also wrote in the article…re the multi- heritages each person carries in our times.
If I did not state my point strongly or repetitively enough, I can say it another way here now: that the issues regarding 'racially tagged' opprobrium are as much, at root, about behavior… and unlaid ghosts and old covert angers, unhealed wounds, self-protection born of a priori trauma, grief, misunderstandings, unforgiven grudges, and lack of differentiation, rather than race alone. I would hold these as evidences to inquire of, no matter which race a person filled with such opprobrium carries.
This is just my .02. There appears to be an automatic almost archetypal one-sided reaction in some, to 'race', rather than a reasoned inquiry that can see many sides underlying.
One of the men might have been east Indian, but I would not know this for certain; especially since the conversation was cut short…. one perhaps was German-African-American-British, one could have been Mexican-Irish, one could have been Korean-Anglo, or Vietnamese-Swedish… all combinations of souls that have come into being in the US as a result of 'war brides,' relocation of war torn people to the US by religious groups in the US, proximity of railroad and other kinds of workers brought in to work in communities far afield from their natal heritages.
I don’t know Superdestroyer what racial mix or heritage the persons were. I was writing about what was said, not about what race they were. It doesn’t matter to me what bloodline said such things. I think I stated that here in comments earlier also.
I know you keep imagining I was “comfortable,” but more careful readers here, note that I've said now for the third time, I was not 'comfortable.' How can a woman like me alone in such a situ be 'comfortable'? I admit, I don’t know how to do that. I wished instead, I'd had able warriors, preferable in full bronze over batting, watching from somewhere near by.
I'm a post-trauma specialist Superdestroyer. There is no way to judge whether 4 men or 2 men, or one man, or ten women ….in any proximity are packing or not, are carrying hidden landmines in their minds or not.
I think that my knowledge of 'the worst of the worst' of what humans can be/do to one another, gives me reason to have fear. Your thought is that “risk of physical violence was extremely low.” But, my witness is different.
The word 'accost' that you imagined, means aggressive. I was other than that Superdestroyer. I was speaking conversationally to the men, and I have a natural voice so soft that people tell me constantly to 'speak up,' because it is so low and, well, soft. Could I shriek if need be? Yes, if urgent. But, in this case, your imaginings do not accurately reflect the reality.
This is just my two cents
Most of the commenters here are telling the stories of their own lives, their own specific, not global, but “I was there” direct witness, and how they found, are finding their ways through. I think that is reasoned and worthy to the discussion, and furthers it. Most are trying to see more than one side to matters critical to all of us.
And lastly of all, although it is off-topic, I think the issue you brought up about renegade DA's, not only the case you mentioned, but many others, that involve 'defendants' of all colors being charged wrongly, is an ongoing travesty. I am interested in what grabs hold of such men who are DA's and why they lose reason. Losing reason is not beyond any of us. Extended loss of reason is, I think, worthy of ongoing cultural study and self-study, both.
dr.e
Superdestroyer wrote: “Dr Estes felt comfortable verbally accosting whites because the risk of physical violence was extremely low.”
dear Super destroyer. I agree there are many different kinds of conflicts, as you have mentioned, and many are unjust and wrong.
And, also, I think holding all these many different incidents altogether as 'same kind' no matter the factual aspects and details of all involved, makes it difficult to sort and address them with some usefulness in our larger culture.
To hold all levels of conflict together as though they all have the same underlying factors makes them into a non-differentiated issue that cannot be solved.
I think that's why so many commenters here are speaking of specific eyewitness: many of us are continuing to learn our ways through by trying to understand and analyze not just others, but also ourselves, our own reactions, too.
In this article, I wrote about 1% action/ influence or less, being countable as progress. That includes self-analysis. Without asking what stands behind my own fears, aversions, instant affront, in myself, as best I can, I don’t know that we can keep the more safe world, the more bridged world, we all somewhere in our lives, hope for.
If noting a problem in our culture is a small progress, if intervening in a problem to attempt to seed something useful and new, is a kind of small fastener for a new and better way, then self analysis, tightens those new fasteners… so that new ideas and trajectories can actually happen and continue to evolve.
That is what I would like to bless over all, Superdestroyer.
I do not invalidate your views of your experiences nonetheless.
You mentioned my 'feeling comfortable to accost white men…' I looked through my article and did not see anywhere that I referenced these four men as 'white' as you note in your comments. That's not the way I thought of them. I was snagged by their behavior, not by whatever race they might be.
I don’t know if they were 'white,' by whatever standard the dominant culture might apply. I can see how you might have assumed they were though. There is an odd almost collective idea in our culture that I think we might need be inoculated against… that if there's trouble, we might all jump to imagine it's between those who the news media perseverates on… either of the two sides understood night after night, as the current and ongoing 'alien other.'
But, the men were, light-skinned. And I have no idea if they were white, as I reflected in my article. Using a race moniker for any individual, has for decades in our country, been pretty debatable as we find via DNA testing that so many are mixtures of many backgrounds… as I also wrote in the article…re the multi- heritages each person carries in our times.
If I did not state my point strongly or repetitively enough, I can say it another way here now: that the issues regarding 'racially tagged' opprobrium are as much, at root, about behavior… and unlaid ghosts and old covert angers, unhealed wounds, self-protection born of a priori trauma, grief, misunderstandings, unforgiven grudges, and lack of differentiation, rather than race alone. I would hold these as evidences to inquire of, no matter which race a person filled with such opprobrium carries.
This is just my .02. There appears to be an automatic almost archetypal one-sided reaction in some, to 'race', rather than a reasoned inquiry that can see many sides underlying.
One of the men might have been east Indian, but I would not know this for certain; especially since the conversation was cut short…. one perhaps was German-African-American-British, one could have been Mexican-Irish, one could have been Korean-Anglo, or Vietnamese-Swedish… all combinations of souls that have come into being in the US as a result of 'war brides,' relocation of war torn people to the US by religious groups in the US, proximity of railroad and other kinds of workers brought in to work in communities far afield from their natal heritages.
I don’t know Superdestroyer what racial mix or heritage the persons were. I was writing about what was said, not about what race they were. It doesn’t matter to me what bloodline said such things. I think I stated that here in comments earlier also.
I know you keep imagining I was “comfortable,” but more careful readers here, note that I've said now for the third time, I was not 'comfortable.' How can a woman like me alone in such a situ be 'comfortable'? I admit, I don’t know how to do that. I wished instead, I'd had able warriors, preferable in full bronze over batting, watching from somewhere near by.
I'm a post-trauma specialist Superdestroyer. There is no way to judge whether 4 men or 2 men, or one man, or ten women ….in any proximity are packing or not, are carrying hidden landmines in their minds or not.
I think that my knowledge of 'the worst of the worst' of what humans can be/do to one another, gives me reason to have fear. Your thought is that “risk of physical violence was extremely low.” But, my witness is different.
The word 'accost' that you imagined, means aggressive. I was other than that Superdestroyer. I was speaking conversationally to the men, and I have a natural voice so soft that people tell me constantly to 'speak up,' because it is so low and, well, soft. Could I shriek if need be? Yes, if urgent. But, in this case, your imaginings do not accurately reflect the reality.
This is just my two cents
Most of the commenters here are telling the stories of their own lives, their own specific, not global, but “I was there” direct witness, and how they found, are finding their ways through. I think that is reasoned and worthy to the discussion, and furthers it. Most are trying to see more than one side to matters critical to all of us.
And lastly of all, although it is off-topic, I think the issue you brought up about renegade DA's, not only the case you mentioned, but many others, that involve 'defendants' of all colors being charged wrongly, is an ongoing travesty. I am interested in what grabs hold of such men who are DA's and why they lose reason. Losing reason is not beyond any of us. Extended loss of reason is, I think, worthy of ongoing cultural study and self-study, both.
dr.e
Superdestroyer wrote: “Dr Estes felt comfortable verbally accosting whites because the risk of physical violence was extremely low.”
dear Super destroyer. I agree there are many different kinds of conflicts, as you have mentioned, and many are unjust and wrong.
And, also, I think holding all these many different incidents altogether as 'same kind' no matter the factual aspects and details of all involved, makes it difficult to sort and address them with some usefulness in our larger culture.
To hold all levels of conflict together as though they all have the same underlying factors makes them into a non-differentiated issue that cannot be solved.
I think that's why so many commenters here are speaking of specific eyewitness: many of us are continuing to learn our ways through by trying to understand and analyze not just others, but also ourselves, our own reactions, too.
In this article, I wrote about 1% action/ influence or less, being countable as progress. That includes self-analysis. Without asking what stands behind my own fears, aversions, instant affront, in myself, as best I can, I don’t know that we can keep the more safe world, the more bridged world, we all somewhere in our lives, hope for.
If noting a problem in our culture is a small progress, if intervening in a problem to attempt to seed something useful and new, is a kind of small fastener for a new and better way, then self analysis, tightens those new fasteners… so that new ideas and trajectories can actually happen and continue to evolve.
That is what I would like to bless over all, Superdestroyer.
I do not invalidate your views of your experiences nonetheless.
You mentioned my 'feeling comfortable to accost white men…' I looked through my article and did not see anywhere that I referenced these four men as 'white' as you note in your comments. That's not the way I thought of them. I was snagged by their behavior, not by whatever race they might be.
I don’t know if they were 'white,' by whatever standard the dominant culture might apply. I can see how you might have assumed they were though. There is an odd almost collective idea in our culture that I think we might need be inoculated against… that if there's trouble, we might all jump to imagine it's between those who the news media perseverates on… either of the two sides understood night after night, as the current and ongoing 'alien other.'
But, the men were, light-skinned. And I have no idea if they were white, as I reflected in my article. Using a race moniker for any individual, has for decades in our country, been pretty debatable as we find via DNA testing that so many are mixtures of many backgrounds… as I also wrote in the article…re the multi- heritages each person carries in our times.
If I did not state my point strongly or repetitively enough, I can say it another way here now: that the issues regarding 'racially tagged' opprobrium are as much, at root, about behavior… and unlaid ghosts and old covert angers, unhealed wounds, self-protection born of a priori trauma, grief, misunderstandings, unforgiven grudges, and lack of differentiation, rather than race alone. I would hold these as evidences to inquire of, no matter which race a person filled with such opprobrium carries.
This is just my .02. There appears to be an automatic almost archetypal one-sided reaction in some, to 'race', rather than a reasoned inquiry that can see many sides underlying.
One of the men might have been east Indian, but I would not know this for certain; especially since the conversation was cut short…. one perhaps was German-African-American-British, one could have been Mexican-Irish, one could have been Korean-Anglo, or Vietnamese-Swedish… all combinations of souls that have come into being in the US as a result of 'war brides,' relocation of war torn people to the US by religious groups in the US, proximity of railroad and other kinds of workers brought in to work in communities far afield from their natal heritages.
I don’t know Superdestroyer what racial mix or heritage the persons were. I was writing about what was said, not about what race they were. It doesn’t matter to me what bloodline said such things. I think I stated that here in comments earlier also.
I know you keep imagining I was “comfortable,” but more careful readers here, note that I've said now for the third time, I was not 'comfortable.' How can a woman like me alone in such a situ be 'comfortable'? I admit, I don’t know how to do that. I wished instead, I'd had able warriors, preferable in full bronze over batting, watching from somewhere near by.
I'm a post-trauma specialist Superdestroyer. There is no way to judge whether 4 men or 2 men, or one man, or ten women ….in any proximity are packing or not, are carrying hidden landmines in their minds or not.
I think that my knowledge of 'the worst of the worst' of what humans can be/do to one another, gives me reason to have fear. Your thought is that “risk of physical violence was extremely low.” But, my witness is different.
The word 'accost' that you imagined, means aggressive. I was other than that Superdestroyer. I was speaking conversationally to the men, and I have a natural voice so soft that people tell me constantly to 'speak up,' because it is so low and, well, soft. Could I shriek if need be? Yes, if urgent. But, in this case, your imaginings do not accurately reflect the reality.
This is just my two cents
Most of the commenters here are telling the stories of their own lives, their own specific, not global, but “I was there” direct witness, and how they found, are finding their ways through. I think that is reasoned and worthy to the discussion, and furthers it. Most are trying to see more than one side to matters critical to all of us.
And lastly of all, although it is off-topic, I think the issue you brought up about renegade DA's, not only the case you mentioned, but many others, that involve 'defendants' of all colors being charged wrongly, is an ongoing travesty. I am interested in what grabs hold of such men who are DA's and why they lose reason. Losing reason is not beyond any of us. Extended loss of reason is, I think, worthy of ongoing cultural study and self-study, both.
dr.e
Regardless of the POV, SD will simply pick and choose what is comfy w his presuppositions, as that is the exceptional argument's raison d'etre.
But, for every incident that he can reel off about a poor white man's testes' reascending out of fear I can reel off another ten in the reveres; and I'm white. Doubtless, several fold more could be spoken of from a person of color.
But I'm scared, my position in life is not as set as it once was. I'm not guaranteed the job I used to be over the darker guy over there. That's unfair, that's racism in reverse.
Grow up. Those very facts suggest that many others have.
Regardless of the POV, SD will simply pick and choose what is comfy w his presuppositions, as that is the exceptional argument's raison d'etre.
But, for every incident that he can reel off about a poor white man's testes' reascending out of fear I can reel off another ten in the reveres; and I'm white. Doubtless, several fold more could be spoken of from a person of color.
But I'm scared, my position in life is not as set as it once was. I'm not guaranteed the job I used to be over the darker guy over there. That's unfair, that's racism in reverse.
Grow up. Those very facts suggest that many others have.
Regardless of the POV, SD will simply pick and choose what is comfy w his presuppositions, as that is the exceptional argument's raison d'etre.
But, for every incident that he can reel off about a poor white man's testes' reascending out of fear I can reel off another ten in the reveres; and I'm white. Doubtless, several fold more could be spoken of from a person of color.
But I'm scared, my position in life is not as set as it once was. I'm not guaranteed the job I used to be over the darker guy over there. That's unfair, that's racism in reverse.
Grow up. Those very facts suggest that many others have.
http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/review.asp?… < — regarding the assembly line stories, Dr E, this is a good book.
I hear the n-word all the time at work if I walk around campus (HBCU) — the kids say it all the time.
http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/review.asp?… < — regarding the assembly line stories, Dr E, this is a good book.
I hear the n-word all the time at work if I walk around campus (HBCU) — the kids say it all the time.
http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/review.asp?… < — regarding the assembly line stories, Dr E, this is a good book.
I hear the n-word all the time at work if I walk around campus (HBCU) — the kids say it all the time.
thank you for the reference to the short story writer JillyD. I just read up on her as per your link. I will look for her work.
dr.e
thank you for the reference to the short story writer JillyD. I just read up on her as per your link. I will look for her work.
dr.e
thank you for the reference to the short story writer JillyD. I just read up on her as per your link. I will look for her work.
dr.e
They call it the “WHITE HOUSE” for a reason and that is because it will always be occupied by a WHITE man (or Woman).
Still, Obama is a NIGGER and that is that….
They call it the “WHITE HOUSE” for a reason and that is because it will always be occupied by a WHITE man (or Woman).
Still, Obama is a NIGGER and that is that….
They call it the “WHITE HOUSE” for a reason and that is because it will always be occupied by a WHITE man (or Woman).
Still, Obama is a NIGGER and that is that….
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!
Obama is a NIGGER! and a marxist at that!He is loved by all of Americas enemies(Iran,communist China,North Korea,Taliban,radical muslims world wide).Drill now! and keep the White House…..WHITE!
Obama is a NIGGER! and a marxist at that!He is loved by all of Americas enemies(Iran,communist China,North Korea,Taliban,radical muslims world wide).Drill now! and keep the White House…..WHITE!
Obama is a NIGGER! and a marxist at that!He is loved by all of Americas enemies(Iran,communist China,North Korea,Taliban,radical muslims world wide).Drill now! and keep the White House…..WHITE!