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	<title>Comments on: Confessions in Search of Conviction: Redux</title>
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		<title>By: CStanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/17841/confessions-in-search-of-conviction-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-129656</link>
		<dc:creator>CStanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Pete,&lt;br&gt;I&#039;ve been under the weather so I&#039;m just catching up on this. I&#039;m glad that you are seriously considering our arguments. I understand your point here about Obama&#039;s potential economic policies (that if he overreaches, he&#039;ll be checked by a larger GOP majority during the midterms), but I don&#039;t see the logic of using that as anything but a plan B. We&#039;re still in the midst of this election, so it makes a whole lot more sense to argue for the guy who&#039;ll cut spending and cut corporate tax rates, will work toward private sector reform of healthcare, and who doesn&#039;t have the usual liberal goody bag of promises which will raise spending by close to a trillion dollars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete,<br />I&#39;ve been under the weather so I&#39;m just catching up on this. I&#39;m glad that you are seriously considering our arguments. I understand your point here about Obama&#39;s potential economic policies (that if he overreaches, he&#39;ll be checked by a larger GOP majority during the midterms), but I don&#39;t see the logic of using that as anything but a plan B. We&#39;re still in the midst of this election, so it makes a whole lot more sense to argue for the guy who&#39;ll cut spending and cut corporate tax rates, will work toward private sector reform of healthcare, and who doesn&#39;t have the usual liberal goody bag of promises which will raise spending by close to a trillion dollars.</p>
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		<title>By: pabel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/17841/confessions-in-search-of-conviction-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-129654</link>
		<dc:creator>pabel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;The following comment is from Domajot, who emailed me separately because she is having issues using TMV&#039;s commenting system.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I was sorry to see your retraction of your McCain post..  Certainly, the issues  involved, torture and a prolonged stay in Iraq, should be discussed in a more nuanced  manner than what is customary in political debates.. but adding nuance and context should not devolve into making excuses for whatever a candidate does or says just because he appears to be a nice guy.It&#039;s perfectly okay to criticize one aspect of a candidate, while not rejecting him entirely.  &lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;In re torture, I think Mccan was  dead wrong in his public stance, regardless of the degree pf soundness underlying his reasoning (or C. Stanley&#039;s). Although I agree that we should not broadcast our interrogation techniques,  it is equally important, if not more so, to not broadcast how conflicted we are about moral principles. THE WORLD IS WATCHING, and every time public evidence arises about out conflicted ethics in this matter, we diminish our standing in the eyes of the world and in our own eyes.&lt;br&gt;The purpose of the law is to banish torture.  That does not banish administrative and  Congressional consideration of the specifics.  The president, for example, always retains the power to issue extraordinary orders in a crisis (the ticking bomb scenario)  The law would simply banish torture from becoming normalized routine  In short, in the process of avoiding  broadcasting our interrogation techniques, we are broadcasting our moral and ethical uncertainties. That leads to further and continuing harm to our standing. &lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;The administration seems much concerned with legal protection for  the personnel involved (or companies that collaborate with them)., IMO, that is the wrong way to go.  The lesson from the Nurenmerg trials was one about personal responsibility.  If those who took orders from their Nazi superiors were (and are) held personally responsible, why should the bar be ;lowered for today&#039;s practitioners of torture?   Because they&#039;re OUR torturers?  This question of legal protection looms large in  the torture debates, and it disturbs me no end.&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;About the 100 years in Iraq: yes, it was taken out of context.  Looking at the context, however, does not reassure me.  For one thing, none of our current deployments of many years standing ever involved policing a country in the middle of civil turmoil.  Germany and Japan  were beaten into stupefied submission before we undertook nation building. For the sake of the argument, would we stay in Germany if that country erupted into civil war or engaged in war with a neighbor?  Unlikely as those scenarios are, they are necessary in order to draw a valid comparison.Our soldiers are not dying in Korea!&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;Again, the most troublesome part of his words was their effect.  What does this  say to the Arabs who bristle at the very idea of Western boots on their soil?  If it turns out that we have to stay for a while,, it&#039;s not something we should be broadcasting abroad!  We should be emphasizing how eager we are to leave!&lt;br&gt;No matter who is elected president, there will be no headlong flight home.  It can&#039;t be done.  So, what we say about it in the interim matters.  It matters a whole lot, and MCCain said the absolutely wrong thing&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;I&#039;m not out to crucify McCain because he does or says what I see as the wrong thing.  I like some things about him and dislike others.  That would hold true for most human beings, including politicians.   The rush to excuse , though, is as bad as the rush to condemn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b><i>The following comment is from Domajot, who emailed me separately because she is having issues using TMV&#39;s commenting system.</i></b></p>
<p>I was sorry to see your retraction of your McCain post..  Certainly, the issues  involved, torture and a prolonged stay in Iraq, should be discussed in a more nuanced  manner than what is customary in political debates.. but adding nuance and context should not devolve into making excuses for whatever a candidate does or says just because he appears to be a nice guy.It&#39;s perfectly okay to criticize one aspect of a candidate, while not rejecting him entirely.  </p>
<p>In re torture, I think Mccan was  dead wrong in his public stance, regardless of the degree pf soundness underlying his reasoning (or C. Stanley&#39;s). Although I agree that we should not broadcast our interrogation techniques,  it is equally important, if not more so, to not broadcast how conflicted we are about moral principles. THE WORLD IS WATCHING, and every time public evidence arises about out conflicted ethics in this matter, we diminish our standing in the eyes of the world and in our own eyes.<br />The purpose of the law is to banish torture.  That does not banish administrative and  Congressional consideration of the specifics.  The president, for example, always retains the power to issue extraordinary orders in a crisis (the ticking bomb scenario)  The law would simply banish torture from becoming normalized routine  In short, in the process of avoiding  broadcasting our interrogation techniques, we are broadcasting our moral and ethical uncertainties. That leads to further and continuing harm to our standing. </p>
<p>The administration seems much concerned with legal protection for  the personnel involved (or companies that collaborate with them)., IMO, that is the wrong way to go.  The lesson from the Nurenmerg trials was one about personal responsibility.  If those who took orders from their Nazi superiors were (and are) held personally responsible, why should the bar be ;lowered for today&#39;s practitioners of torture?   Because they&#39;re OUR torturers?  This question of legal protection looms large in  the torture debates, and it disturbs me no end.</p>
<p>About the 100 years in Iraq: yes, it was taken out of context.  Looking at the context, however, does not reassure me.  For one thing, none of our current deployments of many years standing ever involved policing a country in the middle of civil turmoil.  Germany and Japan  were beaten into stupefied submission before we undertook nation building. For the sake of the argument, would we stay in Germany if that country erupted into civil war or engaged in war with a neighbor?  Unlikely as those scenarios are, they are necessary in order to draw a valid comparison.Our soldiers are not dying in Korea!</p>
<p>Again, the most troublesome part of his words was their effect.  What does this  say to the Arabs who bristle at the very idea of Western boots on their soil?  If it turns out that we have to stay for a while,, it&#39;s not something we should be broadcasting abroad!  We should be emphasizing how eager we are to leave!<br />No matter who is elected president, there will be no headlong flight home.  It can&#39;t be done.  So, what we say about it in the interim matters.  It matters a whole lot, and MCCain said the absolutely wrong thing</p>
<p>I&#39;m not out to crucify McCain because he does or says what I see as the wrong thing.  I like some things about him and dislike others.  That would hold true for most human beings, including politicians.   The rush to excuse , though, is as bad as the rush to condemn.</p>
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		<title>By: pabel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/17841/confessions-in-search-of-conviction-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-129653</link>
		<dc:creator>pabel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:24:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/at-tmv/newsweek-blogitics/17841/confessions-in-search-of-convinction-redux/#comment-129653</guid>
		<description>Jim,&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think McCain&#039;s bark is worse than his bite on the subject of judges.  For instance, despite what he says, I think there&#039;s a good chance he could follow in Reagan&#039;s footsteps and appoint another centrist like Sandra Day O&#039;Connor -- in which case, all should remain well with the world.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Then again, I know there are others who disagree, who feel strongly that a Republican overhaul of the court will be nothing but disastrous, and thus -- even if they like McCain for other reasons -- won&#039;t vote for him for this reason (i.e., stacking the Court).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don&#039;t know.  It certainly deserves further discussion and review.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim,</p>
<p>I think McCain&#39;s bark is worse than his bite on the subject of judges.  For instance, despite what he says, I think there&#39;s a good chance he could follow in Reagan&#39;s footsteps and appoint another centrist like Sandra Day O&#39;Connor &#8212; in which case, all should remain well with the world.</p>
<p>Then again, I know there are others who disagree, who feel strongly that a Republican overhaul of the court will be nothing but disastrous, and thus &#8212; even if they like McCain for other reasons &#8212; won&#39;t vote for him for this reason (i.e., stacking the Court).</p>
<p>I don&#39;t know.  It certainly deserves further discussion and review.</p>
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		<title>By: pabel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/17841/confessions-in-search-of-conviction-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-129650</link>
		<dc:creator>pabel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/at-tmv/newsweek-blogitics/17841/confessions-in-search-of-convinction-redux/#comment-129650</guid>
		<description>Paul -- yes it is a much longer conversation.  But in short, I think core principles of individual liberty, fiscal responsibility, and enlighted foreign policy can (and probably should) be shared by the parties, with the difference between them not in principle, but in process -- i.e., not what gov&#039;t should be, but how it is run.  Case in point:  As a Republican, I thinks more emphasis should be placed on state-solutions when it comes to protecting individual liberty and acting in a fiscally responsible manner.  Most Dem&#039;s I know, believe the federal government&#039;s reach is appropriate or should be expanded.  Again, process not principle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul &#8212; yes it is a much longer conversation.  But in short, I think core principles of individual liberty, fiscal responsibility, and enlighted foreign policy can (and probably should) be shared by the parties, with the difference between them not in principle, but in process &#8212; i.e., not what gov&#39;t should be, but how it is run.  Case in point:  As a Republican, I thinks more emphasis should be placed on state-solutions when it comes to protecting individual liberty and acting in a fiscally responsible manner.  Most Dem&#39;s I know, believe the federal government&#39;s reach is appropriate or should be expanded.  Again, process not principle.</p>
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		<title>By: PaulSilver</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/17841/confessions-in-search-of-conviction-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-129648</link>
		<dc:creator>PaulSilver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:14:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/at-tmv/newsweek-blogitics/17841/confessions-in-search-of-convinction-redux/#comment-129648</guid>
		<description>Pete,&lt;br&gt;I appreciate the tone and format of your personal exploration.  &lt;br&gt;I get a little lost on understanding the distinctions between the core principles of the parties.  The GOP has a position of individual liberty, fiscal responsibility, and enlightened foreign policy. I don&#039;t get that this is meaningfully different from the Dems.&lt;br&gt;It seems to me that the distinctions that characterized the typical Republican is Pro-life, Pro-gun, Pro-special interest, Pro-forceful foreign policy, Pro-American Exceptionalism, Anti regulation, Anti-Alternative lifestyle, Anti-pollution regulation Anti-public schools, Anti Union, Anti-Secularism, Anti-tolerance, Anti-science, Anti-birth control, Anti-renewable energy,...&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I can respect that someone has these beliefs but I can&#039;t accept characterizing them as in favor of individual liberty, fiscal responsibility, and enlightened foreign policy.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This is a much longer conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete,<br />I appreciate the tone and format of your personal exploration.  <br />I get a little lost on understanding the distinctions between the core principles of the parties.  The GOP has a position of individual liberty, fiscal responsibility, and enlightened foreign policy. I don&#39;t get that this is meaningfully different from the Dems.<br />It seems to me that the distinctions that characterized the typical Republican is Pro-life, Pro-gun, Pro-special interest, Pro-forceful foreign policy, Pro-American Exceptionalism, Anti regulation, Anti-Alternative lifestyle, Anti-pollution regulation Anti-public schools, Anti Union, Anti-Secularism, Anti-tolerance, Anti-science, Anti-birth control, Anti-renewable energy,&#8230;</p>
<p>I can respect that someone has these beliefs but I can&#39;t accept characterizing them as in favor of individual liberty, fiscal responsibility, and enlightened foreign policy.</p>
<p>This is a much longer conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim_Satterfield</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/17841/confessions-in-search-of-conviction-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-129647</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim_Satterfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What about McCain&#039;s pandering to the Religious Right? How does his promise that he will nominate people for the Supreme Court like Roberts, Alito, Scalia and Thomas affect your view of him?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about McCain&#39;s pandering to the Religious Right? How does his promise that he will nominate people for the Supreme Court like Roberts, Alito, Scalia and Thomas affect your view of him?</p>
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