OMG you are a broken record. Don't worry SD, you and your fellow white buddies will still be holding they keys to the country clubs for a long time. Good lord you're worse than the christians crying about how they are so persecuted in america.

Back to the torture bill, my argument with Pete on this is that Pete explained what he wished McCain had said to explain his vote, and I see no substantial difference in what McCain said and what Pete wanted him to say. Pete's position is a moderate one, not a leftie one- so I'm not arguing that McCain's position should be sufficient for a leftie, just that it should be perfectly acceptable for a moderate.

This is why there is simply no chance in hell I will vote for a Republican this fall. The party is simply rotten to the core, and a vote for McCain will be a vote to continue this crap. The party needs to be destroyed, and I would vote for Cynthia McKinney for President over any Republican.

At least this time the bill passed. Most of the time when McCain stabbed us in the back the result went the other way.

*** Update ***

I really wouldn’t vote for Cynthia McKinney. It is called hyperbole, folks. You all should be familiar with it if you read this website.[/blockquote]

And as to what your vote would mean, or what it would signal to the GOP: don't you have to look at it in a broader sense, anyway? That a vote for McCain would in fact signal that you approve of a more moderate candidate, even if you don't feel that he's always standing up to the more extremist elements of the party in every way that you'd want him to? I feel that you're being as petty as the right wing fringe- various factions there were threatening to walk out on the party if the candidate wasn't a pure enough conservative, and you do the same when you say that McCain's not a pure enough moderate for you. Don't you have to look at the bigger picture here?

* * *

“Republicans are a white only party”

They aren't, but they're principally white (and middle-aged to older voter-based). Much of this is special-interest identity politics (reverse racism and sexism among them) that developed in the post-1960s radicalism of the Left in this country, at a time when the GOP was no longer the wealthy-white-males' exclusive club that was the stuff of legend then and is largely myth now.

I have worked for change in the GOP and I will continue to do so. I have written letters, donated money to moderate candidates, attended meetings and so on.

But sometimes, I believe, you work for change by withtholding your vote, or casting it in a different direction. Sometimes, the vote is the most powerful message-sender of all. Mike P's comment, above, says this quite well and quite accurately.

Or look at it this way: If I vote for McCain now — would I be signaling to him that moderation is what I want, or that it's OK he made this decision? If I vote for him now, would I be standing up against the hard right, or conceding to their world view?

Republicans are a white only party because I believe that any conservative political party would be a white only party. If Hillary Clinton cannot get black votes, do you really believe that the Republicans have a chance.

However, If a Green Party develops to the left of the Democratic party after the collapse of the Republican Party, it will be just as green as the current Republican Party.

Given that whites are a decreasing portion of the population and that non-whites vote overwhelmingly for Democrats, there are now many states and most large urban areas where the Republicans are irrelevant to politics. However, those are the areas where moderate Republicans used to come from. Thus, those moderate Republicans had to become Democratic Primary voters so that they would have some say in how local government performs since no Republican candidate ever wins.

If you want to find the locations where moderate Republicans used to be relevant but are not now, find the suburbs where the public schools are less than 60% white. In those areas, it is either be a Democrat or stop being involved in politics.

Cause a bunch of plutocrats ( Olin , Scaife) decided to fund conservative institutions (Heritage, AEI, Cato, etc) with the sole purpose of blunting liberalism & rolling back the twentieth century.

They also decided to take over the media and have succeeded in creating two channels of propaganda ( Talk Radio & Fox news) and are working really hard to take over the Cable News ( see Beck & Scarborough).

things haven't changed much.

i believe the things that unite us are greater than the things that divide us. that most of us want basically the same things: a safe place to live, equal access to opportunities based on merit rather than wealth, the freedom from government intruding on private decisions….there are a million things we can find to unite us. where we differ , mostly, i think, is how to get there.

what exactly is moderate republican?

How much money do you think Rush Limbaugh makes a year? And if Limbaugh quit tomorrow, the money would still be there.

The problem is worse than you think.