It’s the Demographics, Stupid (Updated)

Update:

Although titled, “The GOP is no party for blacks, Latinos and gays,” Jonathan Capehart’s piece in today’s Washington Post discusses how the GOP can fix this by spending less time “figuring out what went wrong and more time figuring out how to talk to these voters in a way that broadens its appeal rather than insults potential supporters.” Good read.

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Original Post:

Commenting on an article that lamented the GOP loss of the presidential election and claimed that “if we don’t reach out and bring in the ‘Hispanic’ community into the Republican party, we will never win the White House again,” I asked, “If the GOP had won the election in a landslide — without the Latino vote — would your party be undergoing this deep, introspective ‘soul searching’ about Latinos?”

Thus far, that question has not been answered — and it may never be.

Why?

It could be because it may be a loaded question, similar to the (in)famous question, “Have you stopped beating your wife?”

But setting the merits of the question aside, I do find it interesting that even before the clock struck midnight on Election Day, even before Karl Rove conceded that his party had lost Ohio, even before the election outcome was decided in Florida, the pundits, the analysts and the politicians were focusing on and blaming the “demographics” and many GOP leaders suddenly decided that the party needed to “make nice” to Latinos/Hispanics in order to have a shot at the next election.

We started hearing about Obama’s “demographic edge,” the GOP’s “demographic dilemma,” and even of a “demographic time bomb…that blew up in GOP faces.”

Why this sudden Republican interest in “demographics”?

Could it be because President Obama got 93% of the African-American vote, 71 % of the Latino vote, 73 % of the Asian vote, 60% of voters of ages between 18 and 29, and probably a whopping 90+ percent of the gay vote — I have not seen any official statistics on the latter (See Note). Obama also won the votes of women — they make up 53% of the electorate — by a margin of 55 to 44 percent.

Could it be because, even though 89% of all votes for Romney came from whites, it is a vote they are already maximizing because the white vote as a total of the overall vote has continued to decline in every election since 1992, dropped to 72% this election and will drop another couple of points come 2016 and become a vote that the Republican Party “can no longer rely on…to win national elections anymore, especially in presidential cycles”?

Could it be because the America of today is no longer the America it was 50 years ago, but Republicans still are?

Ross Douthat suggests, “Reliable Republican constituencies — whites, married couples and churchgoers — are shrinking as a share of the electorate. Democratic-leaning constituencies — minorities, recent immigrants, the unmarried and unchurched — are growing, and voting in larger numbers than in the past.”

We saw how Latinos voted overwhelmingly for Obama and we saw how 60% of voters of ages between 18 and 29 went for Obama. Now here is an eye-opener: Every month, 50,000 Latinos turn 18 years old.

It is not as if there were no warning signs. Already back in August, as GOP dignitaries were delivering rousing speeches to overwhelmingly white Republican conventioneers, Sen. Lindsey O. Graham was cautioning, “The demographics race we’re losing badly…We’re not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term.”

And, less than a month before the elections, Renée Loth presciently wrote in the Boston Globe, “If demographics is destiny, the Republican Party has a rendezvous with irrelevance — unless its policies change.”

Loth suggested ways through which the Republican Party could appeal to the new demographic, but also recognized that the party “could double down on its harsh approach to immigration, affirmative action, and other wedge issues and hope — as more than a few have noted — that restrictive new voter ID laws will suppress turnout among minorities.” Loth asked, “Is it any surprise that of the 34 states introducing voter ID bills last year, 33 had Republican-majority legislatures?” She concluded, “Republicans are facing a serious quandary of electoral math. They should be working to broaden their party’s appeal and build a true majority of voters, not treating America like it is one nation, divisible.”

How right she was, and is.

Even with all these warning signals, some incorrigible, tone-deaf-to-everything-but-dog-whistles Conservatives will never admit that there is a real, irreversible, unstoppable change occurring in the American demographic and moral landscape. For the likes of blowhard Rush Limbaugh, doubling down on insulting and denigrating minorities is the appropriate response. Other high-profile Republicans believe that raising token immigration reform proposals up the angry-white-male GOP flagpole and recruiting and parading a few popular Latino and other minority personalities will ameliorate their party’s “demographic problem” just enough to squeak by in 2016.

Of course, Senator Graham’s warning signal and Loth’s suggestions came way too late for the ponderous, angry-white-men-overladen GOP ship of state to even attempt to change course by Election Day. It may be even too late for such a course change – a “recalibration” — by 2016, unless the party can manage to cast overboard some if not all of its most loathsome, divisive characters, some if not all of its most ideological, extreme policies and all of its discriminatory, prejudiced and denigrating attitudes towards minorities — attitudes that are entirely based on race, ethnicity, religion (or lack of it), sexual orientation, national origin, etc.

Perhaps, instead of trying to “win the hearts and minds” of the folks in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, Republicans should start doing so here at home, with all Americans.

And wouldn’t it be nice if Republicans, in their genuine quest to get more votes become more inclusive, would discover that gays and lesbians are normal people voters, too.

As to the original question that started all this, there is an answer that need not be made public but that will determine how the GOP proceeds — and whether it grows or withers.

Image: Shutterstock.com

Note (Added):

While some pre-election polls claimed that 90% of the LGBT community would vote for Barack Obama, other post-election polls say that 77% of the LGBT vote went for Obama.

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Author: DORIAN DE WIND, Military Affairs Columnist

  • StockBoyLA

    Well, yes. The Republican Party WAS once a great party. My family identified as Republican but as the Republican values changed our voting changed.

    I still like the “old style” core beliefs of the Republican Party, fiscal conservatism and their (now long gone) support of equal rights for all.

    The Republican Party COULD win more voters if they got rid of all the hate in their party. It’s a shame that they are against equal pay for equal work and believe the government should make decisions for Americans, especially women. It’s horrible that they work to enact laws that prevent minorities from voting, when our very country was founded in the idea of giving ALL citizens a say… a vote… in the election process, that America was not ruled by the aristocracy (which is what the sniveling multi-millionaires who refuse to pay their fair share of taxes are)… it’s unconscionable that the Republicans are against same-sex marriage on religious grounds and work actively to create a second class of American citizens who do not have all the rights as other citizens.

    If you are a white, straight male, none of the above matters to you, unless you have a conscious and are willing to vote it. Minorities and others who ARE affected by the Republican policies place more value on the core Republican beliefs of smaller government and more incentives for businesses than they do on the extreme social and constitutional beliefs the GOP now espouses.

    But the bottom line is that the GOP not only does not offer programs which benefit minorities, the GOP actively works against the poor and minorities, whether they are women, black, gay, Latino, or what have you.

  • http://themoderatevoice.com/ RON BEASLEY

    The Cuban Latinos in Florida used to be a given for the Republicans but Obama took nearly 50%.

  • bluebelle

    Minority voters are not blind, deaf and dumb. The surest way to lose their votes for the foreseeable future is to make it much harder and more grueling for them to vote at all. The GOP’s voter suppression tactics, which even they seem to be starting to admit were aimed at minorities, may well have lost them those demographics.
    It really should be illegal for states to pass laws that limit their residents’ voting rights on a partisan basis– what other country in the civilized western world does that?

  • EEllis

    “If the GOP had won the election in a landslide — without the Latino vote — would your party be undergoing this deep, introspective ‘soul searching’ about Latinos?”

    How quickly people forget. The GOP doesn’t need to do any deep soul searching, it just needs to shut down some of the more reactionary fringe elements and go back to the Bush/Perry side of the party. Perry is pretty popular with Tejanos (Texans of Mexican decent for you not privileged to be from Texas) believe it or not. He got 40% of their vote, which might not sound good but since 70% consider themselves Dem it says something. The GOP doesn’t even need to back comprehensive emigration reform, like Bush tried and was blocked by Repubs and Dems, just shut down the ignorant and the bigoted that give them a bad name. That and just letting the Latino community know that they are valued and wanted and the GOP will keep more than enough of the vote to remain viable.

  • bluebelle

    The reason the GOP is losing the Cuban vote is that that vote was always based on staunch opposition to Castro by the Republican party. Now, much of the Cuban population has moved on, and this is no longer the primary deciding issue for them.
    Many of the immigrants who fled Cuba after Castro’s takeover are dead or in retirement homes, and Castro is barely hanging on himself. The Republicans will have to find new ways to appeal to this segment of the population, or give them up for good.

  • EEllis

    The surest way to lose their votes for the foreseeable future is to make it much harder and more grueling for them to vote at all. The GOP’s voter suppression tactics, which even they seem to be starting to admit were aimed at minorities, may well have lost them those demographics.

    I think these poor immigrants are a bit more worldly than you believe. They have had a national voter ID in Mexico for over 2 decades and for the first generation I would bet they think the issue is more than a bit absurd. True it gives Dems an excuse to rant about how the GOP is trying to suppress votes, even tho there has been evidence, in any State that has enacted voter ID, that no voter suppression has happened at all. Of course the repeated claims may have some impact regardless of fact but it really seems the issues that drive Latino voters are much more basic.

  • bluebelle

    I have no problem with the ID itself,as long as voters are given adequate time and opportunity to get them and the process is not onerous. Many red states also eliminated early voting days or put an inadequate number of voting machines in districts with large minority populations. Then there was the AZ county that told its Latino voters to show up 2 days after the election.
    In many areas voters waited in line from 3-8 hours — which is just inexcusable.

  • EEllis

    Then there was the AZ county that told its Latino voters to show up 2 days after the election.

    Yep there was a mistake on the paper that they gave out if you picked up your voter registration card in person. So if you only read the Spanish version and failed to pay any attention to any media coverage and where unaware that it was thurs not tues maybe you got the wrong day. Somehow |I doubt you could find one voter who was truly misinformed but pretending otherwise and decreeing non existing voter suppression is good for your party so who cares about honesty. Were there long lines, yep. Here’s a shocker with the economy everyone is cutting back everywhere. There were particularly high voter turn out in some battle ground states and a longer than normal ballot. Voting machines are expensive and they only need the extra numbers for the presidential elections every 4 years. Should they try to do better, sure, but it’s a bit hard when the “event” you are working for only happens every 4 years and you can’t know what the turnout will be. But what the hell if you can use it the reality doesn’t matter.

  • slamfu

    “The GOP doesn’t need to do any deep soul searching, it just needs to shut down some of the more reactionary fringe elements”

    That’s the problem with the GOP today EEllis. Its not a “fringe” section of your party. The GOP has major players, elected officials, top level donors, and large rallies that fall into this category. The “Fringe” of the GOP is in control of the GOP. You saw the GOP primaries right? They may have less clout today than they did a month ago, but labeling these guys as fringe, and saying they are responsible for the GOP’s overall image is pretty incongruous with what is actually going on.

  • sheknows

    Just a thought…The statistics clearly showed a loss for Republicans due to minority voter strength, but what about all those who chose not to vote at all. Only 57.5% of all eligible voters actually cast ballots in this election. That was the lowest percentage since 2000 and 2012 just barely beat that. For all we know, it could have been an entirely differnt outcome if say just 8% more voters turned out as they did in 2008. I guess I am more concerned at this point as to why Americans had such a poor showing overall. Was there such an inundation of negative campaigning that many were turned off? Was voter ID a part of the reason? Redistricting, lack of machines…what? Over 64% voted in 2008. What happened in this election that changed the enthusiasm?
    Latinos and other minorities made a difference to be sure, but what about the demographics of the missing voters in this election?

  • DORIAN DE WIND, Military Affairs Columnist

    @sheknows:

    Some data points from KCRG,com:

    Large drops, according to the American University analysis, came in Eastern Seaboard states still reeling from the devastation from Superstorm Sandy, which wiped out power for millions and disrupted usual voting routines. About 12 percent fewer ballots had been counted in New York than in 2008. In New Jersey, it was more than 10 percent. The gap in New Jersey could narrow in the coming days because elections officials have given displaced residents in some areas until Friday to cast special email ballots.

    [::]

    In other areas not affected by the storm, a host of factors could have contributed to waning voter enthusiasm, Gans said. The 2012 race was one of the nastiest in recent memory, leaving many voters feeling turned off. With Democrats weary from a difficult four years and Republicans splintered by a divisive primary, neither party was particularly enthused about their own candidate. Stricter voting restrictions adopted by many states may also have kept some voters away from the polls.

    “Beyond the people with passion, we have a disengaged electorate,” Gans said.
    “This was a very tight race, there were serious things to be decided.”

    Decided they were — by the millions of voters who, in many cases, braved all kinds of inconveniences to make sure their voices were heard.

    [::]

    Both Obama and Republican Mitt Romney made voter turnout a top priority in the waning days of an intensely close race. But for months leading up to Election Day, both candidates were obsessed with that tiny sliver of undecided voters.

    It may be that those who were still undecided Tuesday decided just not to show up, said Kyle Kondik, a political analyst at the University of Virginia’s Center for Politics.

    “Everyone was talking about how the Democrats are unenthusiastic and the Republicans are fired up,” Kondik said. “It sounds like that was all talk.”

    One bright spot this year was the number of early and mail-in ballots cast. Before polls opened on Election Day, more than 32 million people had voted, either by mail or in person, in 34 states and the District of Columbia. In a number of states, including Iowa, Maryland and Montana, early voting appeared to far exceed totals from 2008.

    Other readers may come up with additional data/explanations/analyses

  • kalixto

    EEllis: The “mistake” on the spanish language flier occurred on three separate occasions. Hard to believe that the same error could occur three times without some degree of premeditation. Moreover, in the wake of the election, there remain more than 400K provisional ballots yet to be counted in AZ. The provisional ballots were primarily given to Latino voters whose legitimacy to vote were challenged. Now, AZ officials claim it is not necessary to count the votes given the results of the national election. What remains in the balance, however are local and congressional results — one in particular has a Republican candidate with a lead of approximately 78,000 votes. It is difficult to believe these issues do not have a certain degree of intent behind them — difficult that is for all except Republicans apparently.

  • dduck

    SK, interesting thoughts. My take: How about low turnout due to low interest. A choice between four more mediocre years and a pig in a poke. It couldn’t compete with the Hope and Change of 2008.

  • sheknows

    Thanks Dorian. Looks like it was a little bit of all of the above, plus Sandy. Still….that’s alot of votes. Guess that tells me that those who did vote were very determined to make a difference.

  • Moose McNuggets

    Fewer Alaskans turned out to vote this year than in our 2010 senatorial election (that one was hotly contested, but nonetheless, the turnout for a presidential year should have been better). And Obama polled better than any Democratic presidential candidate in this blood red state since 1968.

    Here’s a summary of what happened up our way:

    http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/obamas-strong-showing-alaska-and-other-political-tidbits

  • roro80

    The GOP doesn’t need to do any deep soul searching, it just needs to shut down some of the more reactionary fringe elements

    …and then you go on to site Perry of all people as one of the reasonable ones who appeals to Latinos. The GOP doesn’t “need” to do anything, really. They can just go on losing for all I care. I’m just really curious as to what you, EEllis, thinks constitutes “fringe” in the GOP, if you don’t believe Perry or yourself espouse such fringe views, part of what needs to be “shut down”. It seems from context that you don’t.

  • roro80

    no voter suppression has happened at all

    …except that that’s not true.

  • bluebelle

    EEllis said:

    “Were there long lines, yep. Here’s a shocker with the economy everyone is cutting back everywhere. There were particularly high voter turn out in some battle ground states and a longer than normal ballot. Voting machines are expensive and they only need the extra numbers for the presidential elections every 4 years.”

    You still haven’t explained WHY the lines were much longer in minority polling districts or those known to go mostly for Democrats. Since those changes were put in place by Republican state legislatures, even YOU should be able to see that that looks really fishy.

  • DORIAN DE WIND, Military Affairs Columnist

    Hi MooseMc,

    Thanks for the link to an interesting piece about Obama’s surprisingly strong showing in Alaska.

    In that piece, also a link to a piece by the amazing Nate Silver with lots of additional turnout and other election statistics and facts — including a bit about Alaska.

    For example (as of Nov. 12):

    As the rest of the votes come in from California, Mr. Obama could add about 700,000 more votes in his margin against Mr. Romney, assuming that the remaining votes are divided between the candidates in about the same proportions as the ones counted so far.

    Those votes could be enough to push Mr. Obama’s margin of victory in the national popular vote, reported at 2.7 percent as of Monday morning, to slightly higher than 3 percent. (emphasis mine)

    Alaska, which is always slow to count its ballots because of the difficulties of gathering reports from far-flung rural areas, will add more votes in the coming days; only about 63 percent of its precincts have reported.

    Hundreds of thousands of votes in Arizona remain uncounted, mostly in urban parts of Phoenix and Tucson. Ballot counts in Washington and Oregon are likely to increase as further mail ballots are tabulated.

    New York and New Jersey show sharp declines in turnout from 2008. Some of this may reflect the effects of Hurricane Sandy — although New York is another state that can be slow to count all of its votes. New York City itself reports about 2.1 million ballots counted so far, compared with closer to 2.4 million in 2008. (About 20,000 fewer ballots are accounted for in Staten Island than in 2008, a 15 percent decline in turnout. Mr. Obama, who lost the borough in 2008, leads Mr. Romney slightly among the votes counted there so far.)

    Still, it is likely that at least some of the split in turnout patterns will remain intact once all ballots are in.

    Americans outside the battleground states, knowing that their votes will make little difference in the Electoral College, may become less likely to vote at all.

  • DR. CLARISSA PINKOLA ESTÉS, Managing Editor of TMV, and Columnist

    Thank you Dorian for a cogent piece with good undergirding.

    Re the ‘mistake’ on voter card, if one reads Spanish only, and doesnt listen to new media, etc….’

    Sure as soon as I finish my 2rd job, feed the kids, try to help with homework, at least seeing it is done, listening to my children, bathing them, preparing them for bed, plumbing the toilet for the tenth time this week, cleaning up the back up, washing up and shaving for my 3rd job starting at 2am, helping my sick wife change her clothes and get some soup, pray I’ve got enough gas money to make it round trip,

    sure… solamente, then I will surely listen to some sort of media that explains to me that on the briefest of text “someone” made a “mistake” that affects the one thing I have been ensured by the USA government will never be taken from an honest citizen: My Vote.

  • DORIAN DE WIND, Military Affairs Columnist

    @Kalixto,

    Good point.

    Here’s another “good point” on that issue:

    Is it any surprise that of the 34 states introducing voter ID bills last year, 33 had Republican-majority legislatures?

  • DORIAN DE WIND, Military Affairs Columnist

    Thanks, Dr. E.

    I was going to comment on that, but I thought I better stay cool.

    As to the comment “Voting machines are expensive and they only need the extra numbers for the presidential elections every 4 years,” and although I want a strong military, how about sacrificing one, just one F-35, that may never be needed, and buying thousands of voting machines so that Americans can adequately exercise their most important duty every four years.

  • DR. CLARISSA PINKOLA ESTÉS, Managing Editor of TMV, and Columnist

    I think Dorian, the first time I saw purposeful interference with voting was in the year 2000. I happened to be in hospital for a month during voting season and watched more tv than I’d normally watch in five years time. I saw the mis-direction of voters to ‘fake’ and ‘closed’ and ‘sudden road construction barriers’ and wrong info given to poor Florida voters about polling places. CNN reported. The misdirection of those in charge in Florida was rampant and apparently blessed by those in power. It was shameful. It is shameful to see this ongoing elsewhere also. Beneath any code of honor of public service. Were the minor and major powers-that-be in each state who knowingly attempt to subvert the vote, and doing so right out front for all to see who have eyes to see– were they in the military, they would be court-marshalled, found guilty by the preponderance of evidence, and discharged in complete disgrace and dishonor.

  • DORIAN DE WIND, Military Affairs Columnist

    But, but, Dr. E. ,”it gives Dems an excuse to rant about how the GOP is trying to suppress votes…”

  • DORIAN DE WIND, Military Affairs Columnist

    That and just letting the Latino community know that they are valued and wanted and the GOP will keep more than enough of the vote to remain viable.

    Well, let’s see, “down there” in Arizona:

    Backed by two high-powered lawyers, a supporter of Republican congressional candidate Martha McSally filed a lawsuit on Tuesday to get election authorities to halt counting of provisional ballots from a heavily Latino area of the state’s Cochise County.

    The suit could be pivotal as McSally is trying to unseat Rep. Ron Barber (D) in southern Arizona’s 2nd Congressional District. At last count, McSally was trailing Barber by just 512 votes, but the lead had changed hands multiple times since election night.

    Jim Nintzel of the Tucson Weekly reported that Barber campaign manager Jessica Floyd called the lawsuit an “active attempt by Martha McSally’s attorneys to disenfranchise voters in Cochise County.”

    Eric H. Spencer and Michael Liburdi of the Snell and Wilmer law firm filed the suit in Cochise County Court on behalf of McSally supporter William J. Odle.

    They argued that 130 provisional ballots shouldn’t be counted because they “were not sealed, as required, when they were transported from the Castro Park, Ramsey and Hopi Precinct polling locations to the Cochise County Elections Department and Recorder’s Office.” The lawyers said 96 of the provisional ballots came from Castro Park, a heavily Latino precinct that leans Democratic.

    National Republican Congressional Committee spokesman Daniel Scarpinato told the Tucson Weekly that NRCC officials believe “every voter has the right to an election that is free of fraud and ballot tampering.”

    But there is light at the end of the tunnel, it may yet turn out that the Latinos are “valued and wanted.”:

    Update: The Tucson Weekly reported late Tuesday the campaigns reached a compromise to let the counting continue, but the votes may be challenged in the future.

  • EEllis

    EEllis: The “mistake” on the spanish language flier occurred on three separate occasions. Hard to believe that the same error could occur three times without some degree of premeditation.

    Umm I know there was voter reg cards that had the wrong date but only the ones handed out at that office they fixed it before they mailed them out. There was also a “bookmark” flyer that had the date wrong in Spanish, but I’m not aware of the third. And it’s very easy to believe the mistake could happen multipul times if it happened onece. We are dealing with burocracy here are we not. If it was the same person who basicly did some cut and paste work to make these flyers or the same source document was used then of course the same error could occur. Much more likely than your senerio

    Moreover, in the wake of the election, there remain more than 400K provisional ballots yet to be counted in AZ. The provisional ballots were primarily given to Latino voters whose legitimacy to vote were challenged. Now, AZ officials claim it is not necessary to count the votes given the results of the national election. What remains in the balance, however are local and congressional results — one in particular has a Republican candidate with a lead of approximately 78,000 votes. It is difficult to believe these issues do not have a certain degree of intent behind them — difficult that is for all except Republicans apparently.

    You do understand what provisional ballots are right? They don’t hand them out because you look Latino. They get used when you don’t have the correct ID. You then have time to come back and present ID. Till today they couldn’t count all the provisonal ballots because today (14th)is the last day to return.Oh and there were only 170,000 provisional ballots not the 400,000 you claim. Of course you may have gotten mixed up with the 400,000 uncounted early ballots, but the state will be counting them and always had planned to count them. The idea that they would just quit counting is absurd. The state doesn’t certify results till Dec. They have plenty of time to count every last vote.

    You still haven’t explained WHY the lines were much longer in minority polling districts or those known to go mostly for Democrats. Since those changes were put in place by Republican state legislatures, even YOU should be able to see that that looks really fishy.

    Well I’ve seen that claim but really haven’t seen anything that makes me sure that it is anything but pop density. I could make some joke but I’ll skip it and just say that urban voters tend Dem and I would not be suprised to see people in areas that have a greater pop density have longer waits. Sure it may be other things but when someone claims to be sure before they have any ability to really know I tend to discount their opinnion.

    Sure as soon as I finish my 2rd job, feed the kids, try to help with homework, at least seeing it is done, listening to my children, bathing them, preparing them for bed, plumbing the toilet for the tenth time this week, cleaning up the back up, washing up and shaving for my 3rd job starting at 2am, helping my sick wife change her clothes and get some soup, pray I’ve got enough gas money to make it round trip,

    sure… solamente, then I will surely listen to some sort of media that explains to me that on the briefest of text “someone” made a “mistake” that affects the one thing I have been ensured by the USA government will never be taken from an honest citizen: My Vote.

    Are you sure you don’t weant to make up a few more tasks for your inaginary Latino to do? Maybe make them deaf and tho they cared enough to go get and fill out the voter reg. they are what? going to refuse to discuse, read, or listen to anything else about the election? Cus no one ever made a typo before? Now I’m not saying it’s a good thing, it’s not, but regazardless of how epathetic your charactgers are your story has zero effect on if this was an intentional act or not.

  • DR. CLARISSA PINKOLA ESTÉS, Managing Editor of TMV, and Columnist

    “Are you sure you don’t weant to make up a few more tasks for your inaginary Latino to do?”

    sure. How about like my real life when I was the age many of the young married or single parent voting Latinos …Mine was years of raising kids, going to school full time, working three part time jobs and taking care of a partially disabled husband \who actually does help deaf war veterans be fitted for prostheses [as per your deaf notation], dealing daily with chronic illness (highest amongst poor latinos, poor blacks, poor whites), taking care of our elders in our home, oh and a few more endeavors as well in community and church, and trying to take care of a falling down house and old car and paying the bills and and and…. That’s the short list. And it’s not an uncommon list for many who are striving as lead dog for family, those also trying to lift the family up out of barely making ends meet.

  • DORIAN DE WIND, Military Affairs Columnist

    Yo admiro (y respecto) su paciencia, Dr. E.

  • EEllis

    sure

    All that is quite admirable and quite effective in total derailing any conversation or discussion that doesn’t follow your narrative. I mean who can disagree with anything you said so you must be right even tho nothing you said really has any bearing on the discussion at hand. Similar to winning a debate not by making any point but simply needling an opponent into getting mad, you are doing it by eliciting sympathy as a way of short circuiting discussion, definitely a type of fallacious argument.

  • SteveK

    Excuse me Ellis, it was you that so condescendingly asked, “Are you sure you don’t weant [sic] to make up a few more tasks for your inaginary [sic] Latino to do?

    To which dr. e very politely answered with an affirmative… “sure.” And then she gave you a very personal reply from her own life experience that blew your rude “inaginary Latino” theory out of the water.

    Now all you can say to her heartfelt response to your comment is that she’s trying to short circuit the discussion… You’re just too funny.

    I have to agree with Dorian… Dr. e I admire and respect your patience also and I really am trying to learn. Thank you.

  • EEllis

    Excuse me Ellis, it was you that so condescendingly asked, “Are you sure you don’t want [sic] to make up a few more tasks for your imaginary [sic] Latino to do?”

    Ah ok just for you rhetorical question

    And you might feel it was rude of me but to be honest, as I said, I feel her story was a fallacious argument. A tactic to undercut my comments without having to address them with facts or pointed discussion and in this situation it seems a bit hostile and rude to me. That may be me just personalizing here but that is how I felt.

    And then she gave you a very personal reply from her own life experience that blew your rude “imaginary Latino” theory out of the water.

    Um no. First she made up an example and gave it some aspects of her own life. That does not equate to her having shown that it is in anyway indicative of the life of any of the individuals who actually received the voter reg card. The one you actually turn in so as to be registered and wouldn’t be keeping as a reference to know when to vote. All of it was off topic anyway, as is this, but her comments tugged at the heart strings not showed any real example of the effect of the typo on a real voter.

    Now all you can say to her heartfelt response to your comment is that she’s trying to short circuiting the discussion… You’re just too funny.

    Well no I did say that her story was quite admirable also. What else should I have said? What does the plight of her theoretical voter, or her personal history, have to do with if someone did make a typo or purposely put the wrong date on a flyer? Does making the example more heart wrenching somehow change the discussion? Mind you we were not talking about the possible consequences for the person who made the error, intentional or not, where the added difficulty they may have put others thru might factor into the consequences the person should receive. Nope we were just discussing what did occur and if it was intentional. How did her story add to that?

  • DR. CLARISSA PINKOLA ESTÉS, Managing Editor of TMV, and Columnist

    Think discussion was derailed when ‘imaginary latino’ was propopsed, instead of responding to why many people in Ariz, specifically re error in election text in Spanish language, may not be listening to media to hear otherwise. I said [drawing on having lived deep in Spanish speaking country over 48 years of my 67 years, in AZ and NM and TX and CO, and being founder of Mujeres por gobierno, and running the non-profit for adult literacy La Sociedad de Guadalupe... ] that many people who speak Spanish [I know many thousands and they know me by name] have many responsibilities. I named some of them.

    When ‘imaginary latino’ was introduced, I took that as you sincerely not understanding what I was saying… and so tried to respond by mentioning that I too, have a similar history to the literally millions in our country who are doing likewise and thereby may not have a spare moment [to a) be online trolling around newsites, b) sit in the car taking time to listen to the news, c) read a newspaper at leisure d) sit down and watch a tv show for more than a couple seconds before someone in the family needs something... or one needs to be at work, or well, sleep a few hours.] I was responding with facts to your words

    I’m not imaginary. Neither are many many others who are striving to live lives while carrying many, many responsibilities. Last I checked, we are really real.

  • DORIAN DE WIND, Military Affairs Columnist

    I feel her story was a fallacious argument. A tactic to undercut my comments without having to address them with facts or pointed discussion…

    Um no. First she made up an example and gave it some aspects of her own life. That does not equate to her having shown that it is in anyway indicative of the life of any of the individuals who actually received the voter reg card…

    …her comments tugged at the heart strings not showed any real example of the effect of the typo on a real voter.

    What does the plight of her theoretical voter, or her personal history, have to do with if someone did make a typo or purposely put the wrong date on a flyer? Does making the example more heart wrenching somehow change the discussion?… How did her story add to that?

    @EEllis:
    Dr. E’s personal and professional experience with the plight of Latinos, immigrants, refugees, and other minorities and disadvantaged people and groups has everything to do with the issue at hand.

    Have you ever heard of “expert testimony”?

    If this isn’t a prime example of expert testimony, then I don’t know what is.

    Just take some time and read her bio — then reflect, perhaps even reconsider:

    A Latina Catholic, she was raised in an immigrant/refugee family in small-town Indiana (Pop: 600). She writes about political psychology and cultural groups, including age, racial, gender, military, corporate, governmental, mainstream and sub-cultural minority groups.

    Governor’s appointee to the Colorado State Grievance Board, 1993-2006, serving as Chair in conjunction with a Colorado District Attorney, today she continues her work as a “consultant in human behavior” and lifelong activist for schools, legislation, lawyers, judges, and private interests.

    She testifies on policy before state and federal legislatures, and is a Latino diversity scholar. She teaches law students, medical residents, and journalists about the influential tenets of ‘telling the story’ powerfully in clinical and trial settings, through film, television, and the written word. She is a board member of the Authors Guild, NY, and a member of the Hispanic Journalists Association.

    She is a former welfare mother who aimed for college; earned a post-doctoral diploma as a certified Jungian Psychoanalyst, via charter of IAAP, Zurich…

    Now back to your “imaginary Latino” and other random musings
    ***

  • EEllis

    Think discussion was derailed when ‘imaginary latino’ was propopsed, instead of responding to why many people in Ariz, specifically re error in election text in Spanish language, may not be listening to media to hear otherwise.

    Well saying I derailed the conversation by incorrectly responding to your attempt to open an additional conversation is a bit much don’t you think? I see your point in hindsight that you wanted to discuss the effect on the voters that may have received the incorrect materials and while that is of course a legitimate topic at the time the discussion was about if the error was purposeful or not. If at the time you were trying to go off on a different direction I missed it and took the context of your comments as otherwise.

    I’m not imaginary. Neither are many many others who are striving to live lives while carrying many, many responsibilities. Last I checked, we are really real.

    And did you pick up one of the cards with the incorrect date? You hypothesised a person who might of done so and discussed their situation. Now what if any of that would affect a discussion about the possibility someone did or did not purposely put an incorrect date on some voting materials? I’m not trying to delegitimizing anyone but picking out a possible personal situation and saying that because you have seen/lived it then it must apply here? By somehow saying your story being off point to the previous discussion is pretending you don’t exist?

    Dr. E’s personal and professional experience with the plight of Latinos, immigrants, refugees, and other minorities and disadvantaged people and groups has everything to do with the issue at hand.
    Have you ever heard of “expert testimony”?
    If this isn’t a prime example of expert testimony, then I don’t know what is.
    Just take some time and read read her bio — then reflect:

    That’s just nonsensical. Great she is an expert. So is a doctor but you don’t call on them when discussing real estate. Another fallacious argument (for those of you who don’t know I’n not trying to insult anyone, it’s a phase used in logic and debate to define argument that sometimes fools human reasoning, but is not logically valid.), an appeal to authority if I remember right, because in the discussion I was having, her expertise in the immigrant experience would of had little to no connection to the actual fact of why the date was incorrectly put on the voting materials. Sure she may have been trying to take the discussion in a different direction (see above) but as I said at the time I was responding as if the purpose of her comment was based in the original discussion. My comments were not designed to denigrate her experience or background but to indicate that the comments were not germane to the discussion at hand.

  • DORIAN DE WIND, Military Affairs Columnist

    “fallacious argument”

    Wow! Thanks for explaining. See, I am one of those Latinos (imaginary or not) who didn’t know what that means :)

  • EEllis

    Wow! Thanks for explaining. See, I am one of those Latinos (imaginary or not) who didn’t know what that means

    Little bit baiting don’t you think? Honestly I have been reading on logic and philosophy and some of the big words stick with me. Not a new interest of mine but one I’ve recently have been delving back into a bit. I like the economy of use, how when the the language is defined and agreed upon you can pass on so much with such economy and still maintain an accuracy that fails us when using more day to day language. As an example I’m not sure what the intent of your language is supposed to mean. Was the comment about you being a Latino merely an aside to the conversation or is it intended to imply a possible discriminatory intent on my part? Are you truly interested in the term or being snide. I was also trying to explain what it meant so I would avoid the appearance of using a fallacious Argument my self. Argument By Prestigious Jargon

  • DORIAN DE WIND, Military Affairs Columnist

    Good for you, EE. (Economy of words) :)