The Progressives would have some credibility if they ever explained first how the U.S. should treat individual who refuse to acknowledge the Geneva Convention. They are not uniformed military and they are not civilians.

Whether our enemies accept the Geneva conventions or not is irrelevant and always has been. We’ve faced enemies that have committed atrocties just as bad and worse than the enemies we face now, and we still managed to treat them with basic human decency.

There will never be a single point anyone can say that will make torture OK.

We as a country are better than this. We as human beings are better than this.

This is a fine mess that our country is going to be leaving people of my generation (I am 23). So thanks in advance for taking away even the smallest moral high ground we had over other countries who torture.

I guess for some people the saying “If you can’t beat them, join them.” holds true even for torture.

I would hope that Americans can think more deeply for themselves than to merely base their opinion on what the progressives think, or Bish thinks, or any one political bloc thinks,

There are issues too profound to react amerely in terms of helping or hurting political friends and enemies. On that road lies the possibility of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Torture is one those issues that deeply offends Americans of all political blocs.
Haven’t you heard McCain, Hegel and many others?

Frankly, I find it extemely unsettling that thiis would even be a political, issue rather than one about principles. If ever an issue needed to be seen in terms of values, this is the one crying out for it.

It matters not what the other guy does. Did we develop kamakze pilots druing WWII? No, and when the war ended we were still a nation of principles, striving to correct shortcomings rather than to sacrifice ideals.

Progressives in their zeal to score a talking point on the Bush Administration on torture are readying to legalize the battlefield to the point that demanding chain of custody of evidence and Miranda warnings for enemy combatants. They would also have more credibility if they discussed what they think legal intelligence gathering would look like. Of course, since they are activist, they find it much easier to nitpick the other guy instead offering real alternatives.

It is much more likely that in ten years U.S. citizens will be in jail under ICC court proceedings pushed by Europeans.

If you want to worry about being in jail in the future, you better worry about committing thought crimes like using the word noose or niggardly. In the future, it will probably be a criminal offense given the push for thought control on the left.

The Founding Fathers of our country had values and enshrined those basic principles in the US Constitution. The Bush Administration hides behind terrorists threats (many of which are unsubstantiated) to take whatever powers (and rights) they want from the people. I think the most fundamental idea of our nation is that people have rights, which are protected. And the Bush Administration has done their darndest to take that away.

I’m sorry, but for those of you who believe in torture (and by extension the support of the rest of the Bush Administration’s distortions- because the larger debate really isn’t about torture as it relates to the soul of America, but the power grabbing and Constitutional hijacking by the executive branch) if the US government refuses to acknowledge the rights of individuals, hold people in cells for indefinite periods of time without even the ability to seek counsel, etc. I ask you this: if this is what our country has become, then what make us so different than North Korea, or Iran, or Syria? I think that one reason many folks are not bothered by the erosion of our values is that they’ve never experienced it (thanks to our values) and they believe that it can never happen to them. So they take the attitude, “It can’t happen to me so why bother thinking about it?”

In ten years they may very well wake up in jail, wrongly accused of something, and not be able to defend themselves. At that time they will wonder what happened to get them to that place.

Before we all wake up one day to discover that America has become a horrible place, whittled down over the years by fear (and political opportunists), we need to show that we care about the values that make America an enlightened land. Any “dark-age” values, such as torture, do not have a place here. We can only do this by electing leaders who will truly uphold the US Constitution and not by endorsing the same values as terrorists. The President doesn’t get to choose our principles; our principles are clearly delineated in the Constitution and the President has sworn to uphold them.

There is a basic flaw in your thinking.

Torture will not prevent future attacks on America.
It’s rather a question of by how much the likelihood has been increased because of our embrace of it.

In countries like Pakistan, Islamists wear their troture scars like badges of honor, and they use those badges to recruit more extremists.

You are clinging to a myth propogated by those incapable of learning from the real life experiences in ountry after country after country.

The truth is that nothing can be totally effective to prevent a future attack. The world is not a safe place. There is no fairy god mother carrying either a waterboard or a flower of friendship

If you’re wanting a president that can promise you safety, you had better look for him in fairy tales.
While you’re reading up on Old King Cole, there are those who are concerned with the weightier issues of preseving our national character, balancing personal liberties with security issues, and yes, worrying about he soul of the nation.

The example we set in the past was a powerful weapon in defeating enemies.
By ceding our postition of leading by example, we have ceded considerable ground to the enemies of the day.

But why worry about enemies, when we can destroy ousselves by becoming the very thing we are supposedly fighting?

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What we can control is how we live in this dangerous world and what kind of people we are.

You seem to be confirming that the torture issue is about progressive white elites feeling morally superior about themselves. The torture issue is no more about the soul of the country than midnight basketball or school uniforms. It is just a sound bite that is used to distract too many people.

Of course, the issue that is more important is in nonconventional war, is how much such the military worry about future second guessing the lawyers and judges. Remember, when Al Gore proposed putting the U.S. military under the juristiction of the ICC. The torture issue seems to be a back door issue to do just that.

The torture issue has many hidden agendas to it. One of them is the control of the military by the legal community. Another is a demonstration of morally superiority. And a third, is limiting the U.S. capability in world affairs (See the cluster bomb issue as being very similar).

I have yet to hear the Democratic candidates discuss how that would ensure that the U.S. is not attacked again is they stop intelligence gatherings.

I think all of the candidates should state that they will resign from office is the U.S. is attacked again. If they are not willing to personally make that gaurantee, they have no business being President.

I see this as a litmus test for whether a candidate will choose to honor our traditional standards of morality or will be willing to compromise them. It is therefore of obvious importance and is unlikely to fade as an issue.

While sitting in traffic yesterday and listening to Thom Hartmann’s radio show, I was wondering why the left in the U.S. has choosen torture as one of their biggest issue. Do they have polling data that shows it is a powerful issue.

Of course while the candidates are discussing torture or Bible interpretation, they get to ignore that long term issues that the government cannot seem to fix no matter who is in charge. Why not discuss education, transportation, trade policy, or any of a number of issues that affect American much more that torture.

I guess when all of the candidate’s come from the class whose children go to private school, have drivers, have careers in the fields least afect by immigration, it is no wonder that the chatting class gets excited about torture instead infrastructure, schools, or landfills.

There is something wrong when a nation proclaims devotion to Jesus (the atuthor of ‘turn the other cheek’) and practices torture at the same time.
‘Do unto others…” seems to be applicable only if the ‘others’ are really nice people, or one of us.

Anerica has become schizophrenic!

They thought Romney won the debate. And they objected to what McCain said about torture.