<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Fair vs. Foul in Net Neutrality Debate</title>
	<atom:link href="http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/</link>
	<description>An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:14:44 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Interesting Findings of the Blog World &#187; Fair vs. Foul in Net Neutrality Debate</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-106095</link>
		<dc:creator>Interesting Findings of the Blog World &#187; Fair vs. Foul in Net Neutrality Debate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/media/internet/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/#comment-106095</guid>
		<description>[...] Read the rest of this great post here [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read the rest of this great post here [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jim Satterfield</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-106082</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Satterfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 04:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/media/internet/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/#comment-106082</guid>
		<description>The basis for my rather complete distrust of the telecoms on this issue is seeing what they did to a company that we tried getting phone service from at my job. It took forever for Southwestern Bell (Before the recreation of AT&amp;T.) to do anything that they had to do as opposed to the third party that was supposed to have full access to their infrastructure according to the law at the time. The failure to provide service on a timely manner if the request came through Birch Telecom was constant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The basis for my rather complete distrust of the telecoms on this issue is seeing what they did to a company that we tried getting phone service from at my job. It took forever for Southwestern Bell (Before the recreation of AT&#038;T.) to do anything that they had to do as opposed to the third party that was supposed to have full access to their infrastructure according to the law at the time. The failure to provide service on a timely manner if the request came through Birch Telecom was constant.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Pete Abel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-106064</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Abel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/media/internet/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/#comment-106064</guid>
		<description>Jim S. -- Fair enough.  I clearly need to check some of my seemingly ill-informed assumptions about Google.  That said, I do think the core argument of my post stands; namely, there is a critical difference (as dcw601 notes) between legitimate bandwidth/network management and &quot;preferential treatment,&quot; and the debate over net neutrality should recognize that difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim S. &#8212; Fair enough.  I clearly need to check some of my seemingly ill-informed assumptions about Google.  That said, I do think the core argument of my post stands; namely, there is a critical difference (as dcw601 notes) between legitimate bandwidth/network management and &#8220;preferential treatment,&#8221; and the debate over net neutrality should recognize that difference.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jim Satterfield</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-106021</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Satterfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:25:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/media/internet/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/#comment-106021</guid>
		<description>Pete, when I said access I meant they pay for their bandwidth. Everyone does. The more bandwidth you need (And Google obviously needs huge amounts.) the more you pay in one way or the other. As dcw601 said, they are either paying someone for it or setting up their own network that then links into the backbone. How can they not be paying?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete, when I said access I meant they pay for their bandwidth. Everyone does. The more bandwidth you need (And Google obviously needs huge amounts.) the more you pay in one way or the other. As dcw601 said, they are either paying someone for it or setting up their own network that then links into the backbone. How can they not be paying?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Official Offer &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Fair vs. Foul in Net Neutrality Debate - The Moderate Voice</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-105949</link>
		<dc:creator>Official Offer &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Fair vs. Foul in Net Neutrality Debate - The Moderate Voice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 07:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/media/internet/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/#comment-105949</guid>
		<description>[...] Original story here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Original story here. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: dcw601</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-105935</link>
		<dc:creator>dcw601</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 04:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/media/internet/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/#comment-105935</guid>
		<description>First, let me agree with Jim Satterfield&#039;s comments above.  Of course the Googles of the world are paying for access.  Either they built their own network and are peering (in which case they incurred a capital expense and are now incurring an operating expense through peering), or they&#039;re buying their connection to the Internet from someone who has done these things..

I don&#039;t think anyone seriously quarrels with bandwidth management.  But it should be done in a protocol-neutral way.  Those who use lots of bandwidth in a very short time should, if and only if network capacity is being reached, see their throughput curtailed until their demand drops off or the network congestion clears.  But targeting a particular protocol, such as BitTorrent, is a completely different practice, and should not be tolerated.  And Comcast didn&#039;t just throttle BitTorrent -- they rendered it unusable with spoofed &quot;reset&quot; packets that appeared to come from other BitTorrent machines.

Where things get sticky is when we start talking about &lt;strong&gt;preferential&lt;/strong&gt; treatment.  There is a good argument for giving priority to certain protocols whose nature is intolerant of delay -- two-way video (not one-way, which can avoid network hiccups by buffering), real-time telemedicine (such as remote surgery, not sending an X-ray for interpretation, which can tolerate some delay), and the like.  The question becomes whether such priority treatment should be restricted to particular protocols and whether it should be chargeable.

Generally speaking, I&#039;m in favor of allowing the purchase of preferential treatment for purposes and protocols that aren&#039;t delay-tolerant.  But it is a very fine line that deserves careful walking.  I also support traffic management for high-bandwidth users, as long as it is done solely to protect the network and other users&#039; experience on it, and ONLY when network loads demand it.  But there is no excuse for targeting a protocol instead of a bandwidth hog.  None.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, let me agree with Jim Satterfield&#8217;s comments above.  Of course the Googles of the world are paying for access.  Either they built their own network and are peering (in which case they incurred a capital expense and are now incurring an operating expense through peering), or they&#8217;re buying their connection to the Internet from someone who has done these things..</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think anyone seriously quarrels with bandwidth management.  But it should be done in a protocol-neutral way.  Those who use lots of bandwidth in a very short time should, if and only if network capacity is being reached, see their throughput curtailed until their demand drops off or the network congestion clears.  But targeting a particular protocol, such as BitTorrent, is a completely different practice, and should not be tolerated.  And Comcast didn&#8217;t just throttle BitTorrent &#8212; they rendered it unusable with spoofed &#8220;reset&#8221; packets that appeared to come from other BitTorrent machines.</p>
<p>Where things get sticky is when we start talking about <strong>preferential</strong> treatment.  There is a good argument for giving priority to certain protocols whose nature is intolerant of delay &#8212; two-way video (not one-way, which can avoid network hiccups by buffering), real-time telemedicine (such as remote surgery, not sending an X-ray for interpretation, which can tolerate some delay), and the like.  The question becomes whether such priority treatment should be restricted to particular protocols and whether it should be chargeable.</p>
<p>Generally speaking, I&#8217;m in favor of allowing the purchase of preferential treatment for purposes and protocols that aren&#8217;t delay-tolerant.  But it is a very fine line that deserves careful walking.  I also support traffic management for high-bandwidth users, as long as it is done solely to protect the network and other users&#8217; experience on it, and ONLY when network loads demand it.  But there is no excuse for targeting a protocol instead of a bandwidth hog.  None.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Pete Abel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-105909</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Abel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/media/internet/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/#comment-105909</guid>
		<description>Jim S. -- One other point (and please do correct me if I&#039;m wrong here) but I &lt;em&gt;don&#039;t think&lt;/em&gt; Google is paying access fees.  Yes, users like you and I are, but not the likes of Google or Amazon.  I&#039;m not suggesting they should pay for access.  My only point is to clarify whether or not they are in fact getting a largely free ride for their content -- and if they are, then the burden of access fees (and hence revenues for network upgrades) resides entirely, for now, on the backs of end users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim S. &#8212; One other point (and please do correct me if I&#8217;m wrong here) but I <em>don&#8217;t think</em> Google is paying access fees.  Yes, users like you and I are, but not the likes of Google or Amazon.  I&#8217;m not suggesting they should pay for access.  My only point is to clarify whether or not they are in fact getting a largely free ride for their content &#8212; and if they are, then the burden of access fees (and hence revenues for network upgrades) resides entirely, for now, on the backs of end users.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Pete Abel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-105905</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Abel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/media/internet/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/#comment-105905</guid>
		<description>Jim S. -- Thankfully, Whitacre is no longer running the show.  That doesn&#039;t mean AT&amp;T doesn&#039;t deserve some monitoring, they do.  And believe me, there&#039;s no love lost in my industry for the giant telco from Texas.  

NitrogenNick -- You raise productive questions.  I don&#039;t know all the answers either, but I do think it would help if the industry developed standard protocols for network management (which I believe they&#039;re attempting to do), clarified those protocols, published them, and consistently followed them.  Transparancy and consistency would go a long way toward easing any remaining concerns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim S. &#8212; Thankfully, Whitacre is no longer running the show.  That doesn&#8217;t mean AT&#038;T doesn&#8217;t deserve some monitoring, they do.  And believe me, there&#8217;s no love lost in my industry for the giant telco from Texas.  </p>
<p>NitrogenNick &#8212; You raise productive questions.  I don&#8217;t know all the answers either, but I do think it would help if the industry developed standard protocols for network management (which I believe they&#8217;re attempting to do), clarified those protocols, published them, and consistently followed them.  Transparancy and consistency would go a long way toward easing any remaining concerns.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jim Satterfield</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-105872</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Satterfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/media/internet/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/#comment-105872</guid>
		<description>The reason that Whitacre&#039;s comments caused an uproar is that he is saying he wants to in effect double charge. Isn&#039;t Google already paying for access? Aren&#039;t they paying a huge amount for that access? Aren&#039;t I paying for my internet access? The answer to all 3 is yes yet Whitacre and those who agree with him are saying that it&#039;s not enough.

The other factor that is not addressed by Pete&#039;s article is the question of start up companies and how the Whitacres of telecom could strangle them in their cribs with large access fees if they thought it was in their interest to do so. The business model that those who oppose net neutrality want to implement could easily make the model that allowed for the creation of Google, Facebook, MySpace and YouTube impossible. This model depends on being able to have a good idea, good implementation and low start up costs. The elimination of net neutrality could kill this model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason that Whitacre&#8217;s comments caused an uproar is that he is saying he wants to in effect double charge. Isn&#8217;t Google already paying for access? Aren&#8217;t they paying a huge amount for that access? Aren&#8217;t I paying for my internet access? The answer to all 3 is yes yet Whitacre and those who agree with him are saying that it&#8217;s not enough.</p>
<p>The other factor that is not addressed by Pete&#8217;s article is the question of start up companies and how the Whitacres of telecom could strangle them in their cribs with large access fees if they thought it was in their interest to do so. The business model that those who oppose net neutrality want to implement could easily make the model that allowed for the creation of Google, Facebook, MySpace and YouTube impossible. This model depends on being able to have a good idea, good implementation and low start up costs. The elimination of net neutrality could kill this model.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-105867</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/media/internet/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/#comment-105867</guid>
		<description>A lot seems to depend on trusting the net managing to be done competently and fairly.
When it comes to trust, however, that goes beyond the question of simply what works.

It would say that it&#039;s good that these debates are out in the open.  The one who needs trust is the one responsible for demonstrating  why he is trustworthy. It looks to me like the onus will fall on the net managers like Comcast.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot seems to depend on trusting the net managing to be done competently and fairly.<br />
When it comes to trust, however, that goes beyond the question of simply what works.</p>
<p>It would say that it&#8217;s good that these debates are out in the open.  The one who needs trust is the one responsible for demonstrating  why he is trustworthy. It looks to me like the onus will fall on the net managers like Comcast.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: University Update - Comcast - Fair vs. Foul in Net Neutrality Debate</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-105866</link>
		<dc:creator>University Update - Comcast - Fair vs. Foul in Net Neutrality Debate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/media/internet/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/#comment-105866</guid>
		<description>[...]                           Fair vs. Foul in Net Neutrality Debate &#187;  This Summary is from an article posted at The Moderate Voice » Domestic and international news [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]                           Fair vs. Foul in Net Neutrality Debate &#187;  This Summary is from an article posted at The Moderate Voice » Domestic and international news [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: NitrogenNick</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-105865</link>
		<dc:creator>NitrogenNick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/media/internet/16239/fair-vs-foul-in-net-neutrality-debate/#comment-105865</guid>
		<description>Maybe I&#039;m misunderstanding the issue, but I didn&#039;t think Comcast was being criticized simply for managing its traffic.  Rather, it was the manner in which it did so -- targeting the entire BitTorrent protocol, and not high bandwidth use in general -- that made people question Comcast&#039;s motives.  If they&#039;re really trying to attack high-bandwidth users, why not deal directly with the users, rather than the apparently deceptive* manner of sending misleading messages on behalf of the BitTorrent user?

*I also don&#039;t know nearly enough about the specific mechanism to judge whether the accusations of deception have any merit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I&#8217;m misunderstanding the issue, but I didn&#8217;t think Comcast was being criticized simply for managing its traffic.  Rather, it was the manner in which it did so &#8212; targeting the entire BitTorrent protocol, and not high bandwidth use in general &#8212; that made people question Comcast&#8217;s motives.  If they&#8217;re really trying to attack high-bandwidth users, why not deal directly with the users, rather than the apparently deceptive* manner of sending misleading messages on behalf of the BitTorrent user?</p>
<p>*I also don&#8217;t know nearly enough about the specific mechanism to judge whether the accusations of deception have any merit.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
