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	<title>Comments on: The News From Basra</title>
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		<title>By: Jeb Koogler</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/comment-page-1/#comment-105932</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeb Koogler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 04:12:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for all the interesting comments, folks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for all the interesting comments, folks.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Bell</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/comment-page-1/#comment-105839</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nice post - you nicely demonstrate that compelling narratives are generally not internally contradictory, but data is.   If you look at just two indicators, the number of deaths, and the cumulative number of displaced refugees, you can have contradictory data that makes it hard to write a news story for someone with a five second attention span.

Also good catch on the fallacy of composition - i.e. that either Basra (or Anbar) are necessarily proxies for the rest of Iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post &#8211; you nicely demonstrate that compelling narratives are generally not internally contradictory, but data is.   If you look at just two indicators, the number of deaths, and the cumulative number of displaced refugees, you can have contradictory data that makes it hard to write a news story for someone with a five second attention span.</p>
<p>Also good catch on the fallacy of composition &#8211; i.e. that either Basra (or Anbar) are necessarily proxies for the rest of Iraq.</p>
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		<title>By: S.W. Anderson</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/comment-page-1/#comment-105823</link>
		<dc:creator>S.W. Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Without sweating nuances of the Basra situation, or anywhere else in Iraq, what does it tell you when, at this late date the picture of what&#039;s going on is so murky and hard to make sense of?

That is a question that should be asked of our president and vice president their every working day. It&#039;s a question that should haunt their nights. 

Because, their running out the clock to avoid presiding over something less than a victory is costing people their lives.

Remember, I said &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without sweating nuances of the Basra situation, or anywhere else in Iraq, what does it tell you when, at this late date the picture of what&#8217;s going on is so murky and hard to make sense of?</p>
<p>That is a question that should be asked of our president and vice president their every working day. It&#8217;s a question that should haunt their nights. </p>
<p>Because, their running out the clock to avoid presiding over something less than a victory is costing people their lives.</p>
<p>Remember, I said <i>should</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Elrod</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/comment-page-1/#comment-105793</link>
		<dc:creator>Elrod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/#comment-105793</guid>
		<description>I admit that I found Friedman&#039;s blog entry overly triumphalist regarding the post-withdrawal peace. The problem in Iraq is that the various sects, tribes and factions feel each other out regularly and pounce when they sense an advantage. Nothing of late - including the Awakening Councils - has reversed that trend. Only a political agreement at the central government level will put an end to this warlord state of affairs.  Localized ground-up reconciliation plans will never pan out nationwide on their own; there are too many forces with a vested interest in sabotaging somebody else&#039;s gains. The Lebanese Civil War between 1975 and 1990 had multiple &quot;cease fires&quot; and reconciliation summits, but they never amounted to anything permanently until the Taif Accords in 1989.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admit that I found Friedman&#8217;s blog entry overly triumphalist regarding the post-withdrawal peace. The problem in Iraq is that the various sects, tribes and factions feel each other out regularly and pounce when they sense an advantage. Nothing of late &#8211; including the Awakening Councils &#8211; has reversed that trend. Only a political agreement at the central government level will put an end to this warlord state of affairs.  Localized ground-up reconciliation plans will never pan out nationwide on their own; there are too many forces with a vested interest in sabotaging somebody else&#8217;s gains. The Lebanese Civil War between 1975 and 1990 had multiple &#8220;cease fires&#8221; and reconciliation summits, but they never amounted to anything permanently until the Taif Accords in 1989.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudi</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/comment-page-1/#comment-105788</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The British military style is also completely different. Their use of bases and engagement is different...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The British military style is also completely different. Their use of bases and engagement is different&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Entropy</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/comment-page-1/#comment-105786</link>
		<dc:creator>Entropy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/#comment-105786</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Because Basra is seen as an important indicator of what would happen in the event of a broader troop withdrawal&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Seen by whom?  Iraq is way too complex to extrapolate what happens in Basra to the rest of the country, just as the success in Anbar, Diyala and elsewhere cannot be carbon-copy replicated everywhere.  What the British have done is Basra is very similar to what the US did in Anbar in 2005-2006, for example, under Casey&#039;s &quot;disengagement&quot; plan.  That, obviously, didn&#039;t work out so well.

So you&#039;re right on the money with this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Because Basra is seen as an important indicator of what would happen in the event of a broader troop withdrawal</p></blockquote>
<p>Seen by whom?  Iraq is way too complex to extrapolate what happens in Basra to the rest of the country, just as the success in Anbar, Diyala and elsewhere cannot be carbon-copy replicated everywhere.  What the British have done is Basra is very similar to what the US did in Anbar in 2005-2006, for example, under Casey&#8217;s &#8220;disengagement&#8221; plan.  That, obviously, didn&#8217;t work out so well.</p>
<p>So you&#8217;re right on the money with this post.</p>
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		<title>By: University Update - Iraq - The News From Basra</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/comment-page-1/#comment-105780</link>
		<dc:creator>University Update - Iraq - The News From Basra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/#comment-105780</guid>
		<description>[...] House                           The News From Basra &#187;  This Summary is from an article posted at The Moderate Voice » Domestic and international news [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] House                           The News From Basra &#187;  This Summary is from an article posted at The Moderate Voice » Domestic and international news [...]</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/comment-page-1/#comment-105779</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:34:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The fact that it&#039;s Shia-on-Shia violence, hgihlights what so much of it is about throughout Iraq: it&#039;s a power struggle amondg all the different factions, tribes and religious groups.  Personally, I suspect, it;s there, under the surface, even in areas that have been pacified.   

On top of that,come the Iranian and Syrian influence, the influx of insurgents from Saudi Arabia and the still presesnt Al Qaeda, all of it  covered by  a web of corruption at all levels.
What underlies the  stay/go arguments hasn&#039;t moved much off first base if you consider Iraq as a whole.   It&#039;s a different story in different regions in nn ever changing kaleidoscope.  There is no teason to think that will change any time soon, IMO.

For the American public, then, it becomes a question of how long and to what extent the US could/ chould play the role of referee/.police.
It&#039;s amazing and deeply regrettable, that no politician and no candidate lays out the picture in these realistic terms.  It&#039;s all showman talk and bravado.

Biden is the exception, but his plan for separation does not go over well with the Iraqis.  They seem to be one of two types:  either they are clinging to the idea of turning beack the clock and rresurrecting integrated neighborhoods or thery are involved in the power struggle.

I&#039;m doubtful that statements by senators  like Levin, recommending the ouster of al Malik or other drastic internal change are helpfuli  The last thing the Iraqis want to hear is the US talking like an imperial power, willing to rearrange the Iraqi chess board at will.  No matter how badly thigns are going, any people would feel insulted by being ignored as the big boys play in their country.
That is what the US doesn&#039;t seem to get.

In a narrow way, Basra is the canary in the mine, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that it&#8217;s Shia-on-Shia violence, hgihlights what so much of it is about throughout Iraq: it&#8217;s a power struggle amondg all the different factions, tribes and religious groups.  Personally, I suspect, it;s there, under the surface, even in areas that have been pacified.   </p>
<p>On top of that,come the Iranian and Syrian influence, the influx of insurgents from Saudi Arabia and the still presesnt Al Qaeda, all of it  covered by  a web of corruption at all levels.<br />
What underlies the  stay/go arguments hasn&#8217;t moved much off first base if you consider Iraq as a whole.   It&#8217;s a different story in different regions in nn ever changing kaleidoscope.  There is no teason to think that will change any time soon, IMO.</p>
<p>For the American public, then, it becomes a question of how long and to what extent the US could/ chould play the role of referee/.police.<br />
It&#8217;s amazing and deeply regrettable, that no politician and no candidate lays out the picture in these realistic terms.  It&#8217;s all showman talk and bravado.</p>
<p>Biden is the exception, but his plan for separation does not go over well with the Iraqis.  They seem to be one of two types:  either they are clinging to the idea of turning beack the clock and rresurrecting integrated neighborhoods or thery are involved in the power struggle.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m doubtful that statements by senators  like Levin, recommending the ouster of al Malik or other drastic internal change are helpfuli  The last thing the Iraqis want to hear is the US talking like an imperial power, willing to rearrange the Iraqi chess board at will.  No matter how badly thigns are going, any people would feel insulted by being ignored as the big boys play in their country.<br />
That is what the US doesn&#8217;t seem to get.</p>
<p>In a narrow way, Basra is the canary in the mine, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudi</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/comment-page-1/#comment-105778</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/#comment-105778</guid>
		<description>In a somewhat related topic, there&#039;s more good news coming from the Kurdish area. While browsing at McClatchy, no letup from previous owners, I found this interesting story.
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iraq/story/21989.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Iraqi Kurdistan schools will teach religions other than Islam&lt;/a&gt;
Sure beats the BS story about the southern Iraqis/Mek petition.

Back to Basra, &quot;IntheRedzone&quot; by Steven Vincent is a good starting point at a nuanced look at Basra. And the IRONY of his murder by Shia militia says it all. The militia angle went unreported in the US, didn&#039;t fit the AQ narrative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a somewhat related topic, there&#8217;s more good news coming from the Kurdish area. While browsing at McClatchy, no letup from previous owners, I found this interesting story.<br />
<a href="http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iraq/story/21989.html" rel="nofollow">Iraqi Kurdistan schools will teach religions other than Islam</a><br />
Sure beats the BS story about the southern Iraqis/Mek petition.</p>
<p>Back to Basra, &#8220;IntheRedzone&#8221; by Steven Vincent is a good starting point at a nuanced look at Basra. And the IRONY of his murder by Shia militia says it all. The militia angle went unreported in the US, didn&#8217;t fit the AQ narrative.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Satterfield</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/comment-page-1/#comment-105777</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Satterfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/#comment-105777</guid>
		<description>The overall question that should be asked is whether or not there are enough citizens of Iraq who are interested in being citizens of Iraq instead of being interested in being Shias, Sunnis and Kurds to produce a stable, relatively peaceful nation. I don&#039;t think anyone knows but I&#039;m certainly not optimistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The overall question that should be asked is whether or not there are enough citizens of Iraq who are interested in being citizens of Iraq instead of being interested in being Shias, Sunnis and Kurds to produce a stable, relatively peaceful nation. I don&#8217;t think anyone knows but I&#8217;m certainly not optimistic.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun Mullen</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/comment-page-1/#comment-105776</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun Mullen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/16221/the-confusing-news-from-basra/#comment-105776</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Jeb:&lt;/em&gt;

Good piece, and you are correct that simplistic portrayals don&#039;t cut it.

One very important factor is that the British Army has ceded Basra city to the militias and conditions should be viewed through that prism.  When they are, &quot;success&quot; and &quot;failure&quot; become a whole lot less relative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Jeb:</em></p>
<p>Good piece, and you are correct that simplistic portrayals don&#8217;t cut it.</p>
<p>One very important factor is that the British Army has ceded Basra city to the militias and conditions should be viewed through that prism.  When they are, &#8220;success&#8221; and &#8220;failure&#8221; become a whole lot less relative.</p>
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