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	<title>Comments on: Spencer (And Other Critics) Respond</title>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/comment-page-1/#comment-103869</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 19:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/#comment-103869</guid>
		<description>&quot;It shows how religion can be used to excuse vile behaviors.&quot;

Excuse, propogate, invent, take your pick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It shows how religion can be used to excuse vile behaviors.&#8221;</p>
<p>Excuse, propogate, invent, take your pick.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/comment-page-1/#comment-103854</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 17:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/#comment-103854</guid>
		<description>MidAm-
Yours is an interesting comment on Saudi society.
It shows how religion can be used to excuse vile behaviors.
It doesn&#039;t pertain, however, to the claim that a religious text must inevitably and always be used in the same way.

Remember slavery and the Christians?  Both sides of that debate cited the Bible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MidAm-<br />
Yours is an interesting comment on Saudi society.<br />
It shows how religion can be used to excuse vile behaviors.<br />
It doesn&#8217;t pertain, however, to the claim that a religious text must inevitably and always be used in the same way.</p>
<p>Remember slavery and the Christians?  Both sides of that debate cited the Bible.</p>
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		<title>By: MidAmcn</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/comment-page-1/#comment-103853</link>
		<dc:creator>MidAmcn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 17:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/#comment-103853</guid>
		<description>Here it is - Your Right - The Islamic faith is becoming modern.  Proof prositive...!

-------------  http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307680,00.html
-------------

Saudi Marriage &#039;Expert&#039; Advises Men in &#039;Right Way&#039; to Beat Their Wives

He&#039;s Saudi author and cleric, &quot;Dr.&quot; Muhammad Al-&#039;Arifi, who in a remarkable segment broadcast on Saudi and Kuwaiti television in September, counseled young Muslim men on how to treat their wives.

&quot;Admonish them â€“ once, twice, three times, four times, ten times,&quot; he advised. &quot;If this doesn&#039;t help, refuse to share their beds.&quot;

And if that doesn&#039;t work?

&quot;Beat them,&quot; one of his three young advisees responded.

&quot;That&#039;s right,&quot; Al-&#039;Arifi said.

He goes on to calmly explain to the young men that hitting their future wives in the face is a no-no.

&quot;Beating in the face is forbidden, even when it comes to animals,&quot; he explained. &quot;Even if you want your camel or donkey to start walking, you are not allowed to beat it in the face. If this is true for animals, it is all the more true when it comes to humans. So beatings should be light and not in the face.&quot;

His final words of wisdom?

&quot;Woman, it has gone too far. I can&#039;t bear it anymore,&quot; he tells the men to tell their wives. &quot;If he beats her, the beatings must be light and must not make her face ugly.

&quot;He must beat her where it will not leave marks. He should not beat her on the hand... He should beat her in some places where it will not cause any damage.................</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here it is &#8211; Your Right &#8211; The Islamic faith is becoming modern.  Proof prositive&#8230;!</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-  <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307680,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307680,00.html</a><br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>Saudi Marriage &#8216;Expert&#8217; Advises Men in &#8216;Right Way&#8217; to Beat Their Wives</p>
<p>He&#8217;s Saudi author and cleric, &#8220;Dr.&#8221; Muhammad Al-&#8217;Arifi, who in a remarkable segment broadcast on Saudi and Kuwaiti television in September, counseled young Muslim men on how to treat their wives.</p>
<p>&#8220;Admonish them â€“ once, twice, three times, four times, ten times,&#8221; he advised. &#8220;If this doesn&#8217;t help, refuse to share their beds.&#8221;</p>
<p>And if that doesn&#8217;t work?</p>
<p>&#8220;Beat them,&#8221; one of his three young advisees responded.</p>
<p>&#8220;That&#8217;s right,&#8221; Al-&#8217;Arifi said.</p>
<p>He goes on to calmly explain to the young men that hitting their future wives in the face is a no-no.</p>
<p>&#8220;Beating in the face is forbidden, even when it comes to animals,&#8221; he explained. &#8220;Even if you want your camel or donkey to start walking, you are not allowed to beat it in the face. If this is true for animals, it is all the more true when it comes to humans. So beatings should be light and not in the face.&#8221;</p>
<p>His final words of wisdom?</p>
<p>&#8220;Woman, it has gone too far. I can&#8217;t bear it anymore,&#8221; he tells the men to tell their wives. &#8220;If he beats her, the beatings must be light and must not make her face ugly.</p>
<p>&#8220;He must beat her where it will not leave marks. He should not beat her on the hand&#8230; He should beat her in some places where it will not cause any damage&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/comment-page-1/#comment-103848</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/#comment-103848</guid>
		<description>Sam said:
&quot;its been many hundreds of years since it was openly preached by the Vatican to launch holy wars&quot;

To be sure, but the Vatican isn&#039;t the only power evoking a godhead to claim divine backing for whatever it wants to do.

Note also, that Islam has undergone many phases in how the religion is practiced. 
Many of the most vile practices in the Muslim world are triabal or societal in nature, and it&#039;s just as possible for them to skip over inconvenient parts of a holy text as it is for those in the West to do the same.  When society evolves, there is a &#039;miraculous&#039; parallel evolution in what iis found for inspiration in holy texts.  It&#039;s true of all religious texts.

It&#039;s a matter of how those in power use the texts, not the texts themselves, that makes the difference.
How Islam will evolve will be determined by the politcs of the societies, not by the texts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam said:<br />
&#8220;its been many hundreds of years since it was openly preached by the Vatican to launch holy wars&#8221;</p>
<p>To be sure, but the Vatican isn&#8217;t the only power evoking a godhead to claim divine backing for whatever it wants to do.</p>
<p>Note also, that Islam has undergone many phases in how the religion is practiced.<br />
Many of the most vile practices in the Muslim world are triabal or societal in nature, and it&#8217;s just as possible for them to skip over inconvenient parts of a holy text as it is for those in the West to do the same.  When society evolves, there is a &#8216;miraculous&#8217; parallel evolution in what iis found for inspiration in holy texts.  It&#8217;s true of all religious texts.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a matter of how those in power use the texts, not the texts themselves, that makes the difference.<br />
How Islam will evolve will be determined by the politcs of the societies, not by the texts.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Satterfield</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/comment-page-1/#comment-103809</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Satterfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 01:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/#comment-103809</guid>
		<description>Islamic thought hasn&#039;t changed. &lt;strong&gt;Some&lt;/strong&gt; Islamic thought has changed. As a religion even more decentralized in its authority figures than Christianity it is even more complex than Jeb is saying. There are those who preach against the violence of the terrorists and those who seek to justify it. Each side finds things in the Koran to justify their position. As Don said, women are still stoned in some places and gays are executed for no other crime than their sexual orientation as well. Pictures of these executions have made their way out of Iran, for instance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Islamic thought hasn&#8217;t changed. <strong>Some</strong> Islamic thought has changed. As a religion even more decentralized in its authority figures than Christianity it is even more complex than Jeb is saying. There are those who preach against the violence of the terrorists and those who seek to justify it. Each side finds things in the Koran to justify their position. As Don said, women are still stoned in some places and gays are executed for no other crime than their sexual orientation as well. Pictures of these executions have made their way out of Iran, for instance.</p>
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		<title>By: pacatrue</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/comment-page-1/#comment-103793</link>
		<dc:creator>pacatrue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/#comment-103793</guid>
		<description>The point I think Jeb is trying to make (actually I think he is making it clearly it is just being ignored) is that Islam is as complex as any other major religious tradition and it changes through time. What people once thought was the ideal interpretation of the Quran is different than they think now. And there is no single interpretation now, just as there is no single intepretation of Christianity or Judaism now. To focus exclusively on certain segments of what was written 1400 years ago in order to understand the modern religious tradition of a billion plus people would be like taking Deuteronomy and concluding you now understand the essense of Christianity for all time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point I think Jeb is trying to make (actually I think he is making it clearly it is just being ignored) is that Islam is as complex as any other major religious tradition and it changes through time. What people once thought was the ideal interpretation of the Quran is different than they think now. And there is no single interpretation now, just as there is no single intepretation of Christianity or Judaism now. To focus exclusively on certain segments of what was written 1400 years ago in order to understand the modern religious tradition of a billion plus people would be like taking Deuteronomy and concluding you now understand the essense of Christianity for all time.</p>
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		<title>By: donsingleton</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/comment-page-1/#comment-103787</link>
		<dc:creator>donsingleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/#comment-103787</guid>
		<description>Young girls, in many different Islamic countries, are still subjugated to genetial mutilization

Women, in many different Islamic countries, are still stoned for adultery

Christians, in most, if not all, Islamic countries, are not able to practice their faith publically, build churches (Muslims build mosques all over the place), etc.

Gays, in many different Islamic countries, are still executed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Young girls, in many different Islamic countries, are still subjugated to genetial mutilization</p>
<p>Women, in many different Islamic countries, are still stoned for adultery</p>
<p>Christians, in most, if not all, Islamic countries, are not able to practice their faith publically, build churches (Muslims build mosques all over the place), etc.</p>
<p>Gays, in many different Islamic countries, are still executed.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/comment-page-1/#comment-103772</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 21:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/#comment-103772</guid>
		<description>Jeb,

I&#039;m amazed at your patience in trying to reason with the unreasonable.
Some people just KNOW what the Koran means, just like others just KNOW what the Bible says they should do and think about every daily issue.

The fact that both texts have directed people to come to different conclusions means nothing.  
THEY KNOW.

 I wish you strength and perseverence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeb,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m amazed at your patience in trying to reason with the unreasonable.<br />
Some people just KNOW what the Koran means, just like others just KNOW what the Bible says they should do and think about every daily issue.</p>
<p>The fact that both texts have directed people to come to different conclusions means nothing.<br />
THEY KNOW.</p>
<p> I wish you strength and perseverence.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/comment-page-1/#comment-103771</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 21:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/#comment-103771</guid>
		<description>&quot;and the Holy Bible isnâ€™t full of murder, sex ,and violence?&quot;

Oh it is, but its been many hundreds of years since it was openly preached by the Vatican to launch holy wars and impose religous law upon the landscape.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;and the Holy Bible isnâ€™t full of murder, sex ,and violence?&#8221;</p>
<p>Oh it is, but its been many hundreds of years since it was openly preached by the Vatican to launch holy wars and impose religous law upon the landscape.</p>
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		<title>By: MidAmcn</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/comment-page-1/#comment-103770</link>
		<dc:creator>MidAmcn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 21:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/#comment-103770</guid>
		<description>Whoa hat a symbol of modern new thinking, allowing women to get their &quot;Hymen Reconstructed&quot; so they will not be subject to stonning to death for sex out side and before marriage.

Maybe this will save a few thousand women evry year from the common Honor Killings that are occuring and never prosecuted.

Now if we can only get someone to setup a Billion $$ Hymen Reconstruction fund to save all those women who have had premartial sex !!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoa hat a symbol of modern new thinking, allowing women to get their &#8220;Hymen Reconstructed&#8221; so they will not be subject to stonning to death for sex out side and before marriage.</p>
<p>Maybe this will save a few thousand women evry year from the common Honor Killings that are occuring and never prosecuted.</p>
<p>Now if we can only get someone to setup a Billion $$ Hymen Reconstruction fund to save all those women who have had premartial sex !!!</p>
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		<title>By: hanginjohnny</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/comment-page-1/#comment-103769</link>
		<dc:creator>hanginjohnny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 21:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/#comment-103769</guid>
		<description>and the Holy Bible isn&#039;t full of murder, sex ,and violence?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and the Holy Bible isn&#8217;t full of murder, sex ,and violence?</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/comment-page-1/#comment-103767</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 20:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/15881/spencer-and-other-critics-respond/#comment-103767</guid>
		<description>Religon aside I think you should know that I have also recently decided that women should be allowed access to politics and should not have their clitoris cut out at a young age, which I once used to permit.   Do I get a pat on the back for my forward thinking attitudes or do you still cringe at my once and recently held beliefs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Religon aside I think you should know that I have also recently decided that women should be allowed access to politics and should not have their clitoris cut out at a young age, which I once used to permit.   Do I get a pat on the back for my forward thinking attitudes or do you still cringe at my once and recently held beliefs?</p>
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