Umm, I’d like to point out that I’m clearly not a member of the Right and yet I too oppose this mandatory national service plan…out of liberal values like self-determination and diversity and choice.

I echo what Tom says. National service is a forced servitude…whether its forcing to people to fight in wars they don’t believe in or forcing them to work in the public sector.

I look upon joining the Peace Corps or working on behalf on one’s local community as a good and honorable thing. But such service loses its virtue when one has to be forced to do it.

I have to largely agree with DLS and superdestroyer on this one. And if anyone wants to peg me as being a part of “the Right”, they’ve got an uphill battle in front of them.

The Right is weighing in:

Umm, I’d like to point out that I’m clearly not a member of the Right and yet I too oppose this mandatory national service plan…out of liberal values like self-determination and diversity and choice.

I get the message, and I’ts a very bad and destructive message. It’s all about take, take, take with no give.

Formulaic thinking won’t help here. I haven’t made up my mind about national service yet, because it needs thinking about outside any ideological box.
The suggestions re possible problems need to be onsidered along with ways to improve on past excperiences. Any government program has its problems, but so does across the board privatization and volunteerism.

Luckily, there are some thinkers who can think outside narrow and prw-chewed paradigms, and I’ll be looking to see what they have to say before I make my mind up.

The knee-jerk reactions here will play no part in my project.

I get the mesaage. It’s take, take, twke with no give.

It’s a very bad message, IMO, and very destructive.
I’m rooting for those with more reasonable approaches, involving thinking outside set formulas and slogans.

Like I “donate” my tax payments and traffic fines? On pain of prosecution?

The book issued to the public about HillaryCare used even kinder, gentler words: “asked to contribute.” (Nothing in the book explained the result if one were to respectfully decline.)

Public service never killed anyone. … why not donate some time to the good ol USA?

Like I “donate” my tax payments and traffic fines? On pain of prosecution?

I thought we cleared up that whole involuntary servitude/slavery thing a while back. Except for that end run under the “raising armies” bit.

Public service never killed anyone. … why not donate some time to the good ol USA?

You mean have it required (and taken) of you.

I would agree with universal conscription (i.e., being sent into the military), but that’s about it. No super social work stuff, etc. Bah! Humbug.

(Note that true government-purposeful “public service” in the form of military service has maimed as well as killed many, as many of you no doubt know, in Iraq.)

“Rights and Responsibilities” is nothing new among collectivists and those with elitist as well as power-craving tendencies. Rex Tugwell’s proposed new constitution included duties as well as rights. It had nothing to do with universal conscription (everyone spending a few years in the military) but said this:

Rights and Responsibilities

A. Rights

SECTION 1

Freedom of expression, of communication, of movement, of assembly, or of petition shall not be abridged except in declared emergency.

SECTION 2

Access to information possessed by governmental agencies shall not be denied except in interest of national security; but communications among officials necessary to decision making shall be privileged.

SECTION 3

Public communicators may decline to reveal sources of information, but shall be responsible for hurtful disclosures.

SECTION 4

The privacy of individuals shall be respected; searches and seizures shall be made only on judicial warrant; persons shall be pursued or questioned only for the prevention of crime or the apprehension of suspected criminals, and only according to rules established under law.

SECTION 5

There shall be no discrimination because of race, creed, color, origin, or sex. The Court of Rights and Responsibilities may determine whether selection for various occupations has been discriminatory.

SECTION 6

All persons shall have equal protection of the laws, and in all electoral procedures the vote of every eligible citizen shall count equally with others.

SECTION 7

It shall be public policy to promote discussion of public issues and to encourage peaceful public gatherings for this purpose. Permission to hold such gatherings shall not be denied, nor shall they be interrupted, except in declared emergency or on a showing of imminent danger to public order and on judicial warrant.

SECTION 8

The practice of religion shall be privileged; but no religion shall be imposed by some on others, and none shall have public support.

SECTION 9

Any citizen may purchase, sell, lease, hold, convey and inherit real and personal property, and shall benefit equally from all laws for security in such transactions.

SECTION 10

Those who cannot contribute to productivity shall be entitled to a share of the national product; but distribution shall be fair and the total may not exceed the amount for this purpose held in the National Sharing Fund.

SECTION 11

Education shall be provided at public expense for those who meet appropriate tests of eligibility.

SECTION 12

No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. No property shall be taken without compensation.

SECTION 13

Legislatures shall define crimes and conditions requiring restraint, but confinement shall not be for punishment; and when possible, there shall be preparation for return to freedom.

SECTION 14

No person shall be placed twice in jeopardy for the same offense.

SECTION 15

Writs of habeas corpus shall not be suspended except in declared emergency.

SECTION 16

Accused persons shall be informed of charges against them, shall have a speedy trial, shall have reasonable bail, shall be allowed to confront witnesses or to call others, and shall not be compelled to testify against themselves; at the time of arrest they shall be informed of their right to be silent and to have counsel, provided, if necessary, at public expense; and courts shall consider the contention that prosecution may be under an invalid or unjust statute.

B. Responsibilities

SECTION 1

Each freedom of the citizen shall prescribe a corresponding responsibility not to diminish that of others: of speech, communication, assembly, and petition, to grant the same freedom to others; of religion, to respect that of others; of privacy, not to invade that of others; of the holding and disposal of property, the obligation to extend the same privilege to others.

SECTION 2

Individuals and enterprises holding themselves out to serve the public shall serve all equally and without intention to misrepresent, conforming to such standards as may improve health and welfare.

SECTION 3

Protection of the law shall be repaid by assistance in its enforcement; this shall include respect for the procedures of justice, apprehension of lawbreakers, and testimony at trial.

SECTION 4

Each citizen shall participate in the processes of democracy, assisting in the selection of officials and in the monitoring of their conduct in office.

SECTION 5

Each shall render such services to the nation as may be uniformly required by law, objection by reason of conscience being adjudicated as hereinafter provided; and none shall expect or may receive special privileges unless they be for a public purpose defined by law.

SECTION 6

Each shall pay whatever share of governmental costs is consistent with fairness to all.

SECTION 7

Each shall refuse awards or titles from other nations or their representatives except as they be authorized by law.

SECTION 8

There shall be a responsibility to avoid violence and to keep the peace; for this reason the bearing of arms or the possession of lethal weapons shall be confined to the police, members of the armed forces, and those licensed under law.

SECTION 9

Each shall assist in preserving the endowments of nature and enlarging the inheritance of future generations.

SECTION 10

Those granted the use of public lands, the air, or waters shall have a responsibility for using these resources so that, if irreplaceable, they are conserved and, if replaceable, they are put back as they were.

SECTION 11

Retired officers of the armed forces, of the senior civil service, and of the Senate shall regard their service as a permanent obligation and shall not engage in enterprise seeking profit from the government.

SECTION 12

The devising or controlling of devices for management or technology shall establish responsibility for resulting costs.

SECTION 13

All rights and responsibilities defined herein shall extend to such associations of citizens as may be authorized by law.

Whether it is the Military or the Peace Corps or some similar organization. It is time for such an idea.

Public service is restricted in most cases to a bit of volunteer work in extracurricular activities.

But isn’t this “national service” essentially mandatory volunteer work? And if volunteer activities become a regular part of one’s life, they add up to more than “a bit” of work.

Many young people are bursting with energy, a sense of adventure, and an idealistic determination to make the world a better place.

If that’s really true, then why not encourage rather than force their participation in public service? And why do we see the phenomena of people older than 26 pushing for mandatory service for those younger than 26? Why don’t they do it themselves, if it’s so important?

Universal national service is less about governmental authority and more about a renewal of personal citizenship through sustained individual commitment to improving the nation.

Then why not drop the mandatory part, especially if it’s about individual commitment?

I sure wouldn’t like the government telling me, “Nope, you’re not good enough, you have to do community service to be a decent American.” And that’s the unspoken context behind the limitation to people 18 to 26: That “these kids today” are bad and making the wrong life choices and need to be forced to change their beliefs and lives.

The problems.

1. Extreme classism. Leaving the door open for NGO’s to be involved means that the children of the rich will end up living in NYC, LA, SF, DC and working as interns at NGO;s while having their lifestyle subsidized by their families while the poor end up on a mountain side in the western united states.

2. No enforcement mechanism. What if someone just does not do it. Are the police going to arrest them? Would you deny government benefits that those who do not?

3. What about those in education programs like medicine, sciences, engineering that take a long time. do you really want someone studying math to take two years off to pick up trash? The U.S. has enough problems competing in the high tech world without hamstringing the students who really want to work in the tech fields?

4. That is would become like applying to college. The best and brightest will quickly be drawn to a few programs that will be massively oversubscribed. Whereas, many of the hard programs will be without enough volunteers. The military tests everyone before deciding on their career field. Do you propose the same or will it be like applying to college that would benefit the rich and connected.

5. The program will quickly be full of loopholes that will let the children of the rich get out of it altogether (look at what has happened to SAT testing).

6. You could destroy many programs by loading them up with poorly educated, unmotivated workers who will cost more to maintain than any possible benefit that the country would get out of them. Are you going to have a rating system (like the military) where if someone does a lousy job in their two years, they do not get their service credit?