“The American public needs to understand we’re talking about rape and murder here.”

Thanks Lindsey, your beautiful. That’s all, folks!

Did I say it was okay to Torture? NO. I said this was a sad attempt by Jeb to use this article to imply that the USA does this same type of thing.

Somebody-

You are continually missing the point.

My point was he was using this article to imply the USA does these things.

Let me emphatically state that I am opposed to torture. That the means of torture depicted by this mans personal narrative does not work. He is correct in assuming that intelligence sometimes tries to make the facts support a preconceived conclusion.

Oh wait that might be misread and yet again sound as if Im supporting torture. So I’ll make it real simple.

I do not believe in or condone torture.

No that might be too many words.

NO TORTURE.

TORTURE BAD.

We are supposed to be the good guys. And in a war of ideas, volintarily sacrificing the morale high ground to wallow in the mud with our opponents is hardly a winning strategy.

As has been pointed out, it does not work

Osama wants us to torture. If you pay any attention to AQ’s goals, turning the US into something no different then any other third world country is high on the list. Point to AQ on this one issue anyway.

Your right Hangin I should reread my history cause it keeps being rewritten by GOOGLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That’s because a CIA sponsored guerilla war caused the deaths of innocent clergy in South America. Somebody needs to go back and re-read. Trust me it helps broaden your viewpoint.

…and yet again, this is not about pro-war/anti war- but a personal account of someone caught in the middle who was forced to endure extreme measures for the sake of expedient, and miscarried justice.

torture. It does in fact work. It works quite well in fact. Yet when you beat someone this type of torture does not work. The people end up telling you whatever you want to hear. Instead you break them subtly, using sleep deprevation, cold cells, mind games.

And so, finally, we get our answer- Sleep deprivation, cold cells, mind games (I notice water boarding doesn’t get a mention, why so shy?) the same techniques successive administrations condemned as torture when practiced by the Soviet Union, are all OK with Somebody just so long as their subtle (I’m finding it hard to understand how you would freeze someone close to death in a subtle way, or what exactly a subtle stress position looks like).

As Mark Bowden pointed out in his contribution to ‘The Question Of Torture’ discussion held at the New York Library in 2005, if you’re scared enough you might find comfort in the idea that there are guys on our side tough enough to brutalize our perceived enemies, but as the Israelis discovered, its a false comfort because when you legalize abuse it escalates out of all control and pretty soon its the sadists running the show. The result is more enemies, not less; more death, not less, and worst of all, a once great country crawling around in the dirt with all the other disgraced nations of the world.

Was it Beckett who said ‘Nobody knows what the Ostrich sees in the sand’? Maybe Somebody can give us a hint.

You are continually missing the point.

These techniques do not defend or protect.
They hinder defending and protecting.

The British experience teaches important lessons.
Aside from the obvious harm done to the tortured, getting false confessions from the wrong detainees can acutally obsruct the process of getting accurate intelligence and catchimg the correct wrongdoers.
In addtition, it fuels the enemy’s capability to recruit.
It didn’t work in regard to the IRA and it doesn’t work with other terrorists.

With that historical knowldge available, why the US felt it had to invent the wheel all over again, I”ll never understand.

As we stand now, the military code forbidding torture does not extend to the CIA,and the very definition of torture in some circumstances includes a bar set so hight that it’s virtually impossible to reach it: techniques that INTENTIONALLY cause organ failure or death. Will a psychiatrist determine if organ failure was caused accidently or willfully?

It is also ture that false accusations of torture are quite possible. What makes them possible, however, ifs that the US chose to lower its standards enough to make false accusations realistic, if not actually real.
The importance of a clean record and a good reputation can not be overstated. I wonder if we will ever regain what has been lost in that regard.

Why? We are fighting a WAR. These people are paid to defend you.

The Church Committee was a fine reason for Jimmy Carter to GUT the CIA and force us to play catch up even today. I suppose it was necessary given the severity of the Watergate breakins and President Nixons resignation however we pay our spys to spy.

Covert operations are not meant to be pretty, politically correct nor socially acceptable. They are intended to preserve protect and defend the United States of America. I am sorry many of you feel so threatened that you would once again want to gut the very forces that protect us from evil purely because you have an obsessive hatred for all Things Bush/Cheney.

Jimmy Carter was a knee jerk reaction to Watergate. The Church Committee was a knee jerk reaction to the fact that a few ex cia operatives were involved in Watergate. The result was a gutted and worthless CIA that failed to spot 911……..Gave us worthless intell on Iraq, told Bill Clinton to bomb an aspirin factory, and I could go on and on. It was not their fault. It was a countries fault that cannot accept responsibility but rather must forever look for someone to blame.

NOW….if you mean you want someone to investigate Bush/Cheney………….so be it.

Then when Hillary Leaves office we will appoint someone to investigate her. Where does it stop??

YOU are advocating a continual polarization of this country. I am opposed to that. Sometimes the truth is not worth knowing. The cost is just too great to bear.

Sometimes there is just too much information.

Read the article. The mans article implies all types of evil, painful, life threatening things that the USA has never done to its prisioners. OR….OR if it has it was isolated incidents and the people have gone to prision for it. Repeat….people go to prision for this type of activity……………STILL…..Repeat people go to prision and have their lives ruined for these types of misdeeds.

My point was he was using this article to imply the USA does these things.

If your antiwar you scoop it up and condemn me for even questioning this article with quotes such as:

It is Somebody Said who has covered his ears, shut his eyes and is threatening to hold his breath until everyone stops saying those nasty things.

If you think this is an OK way for the United States Of America to treat its prisoners then for God sake say so, and stop throwing ridiculous insults

Did I say it was okay to Torture? NO. I said this was a sad attempt by Jeb to use this article to imply that the USA does this same type of thing.

I did not say anything about her having him killed, nor do I make such accusations……..However if I write something and imply something but dont say it….it is suggestive reasoning.

This is what Jeb is doing. The debate rages in the USA about torture. Yet he then reprints a torture victims story from another country. Implication? The USA tortures like Saudi Arabia does.

Secondly I do very much understand the point of torture. It does in fact work. It works quite well in fact. Yet when you beat someone this type of torture does not work. The people end up telling you whatever you want to hear. Instead you break them subtly, using sleep deprevation, cold cells, mind games.

If you want to know how the USA effectively interrogates its prisioners then I invite you to read a very telling article published in the Atlantic in the May 2006 issue “How to bring down a Terrorist” by Mark Bowden.

There you will find unusally unique versions of subtle torture because as you guys define torture it is anything that deprives the terrorists of a Donald Trump lifestyle while in captivity.

Abu Ghraib was an abomination. A bunch of thugs run a muck. Poorly trained National Guardsmen given subtle yet unreavaling suggestion by higher ups who then covered their own arses.

No I have no doubt that we have had transgressions but the cia refuses to even partake of interrogations unless they are conducted using stringent time established methods that work and work quite well.

To admit our government has gone too far in its determination to protect the country is not to put our heads in the sand, quite the opposite in fact. It is Somebody Said who has covered his ears, shut his eyes and is threatening to hold his breath until everyone stops saying those nasty things.

As has been documented by those within GITMO, prisoners have been frozen close to death. They have been kept awake, with minimal respite, for 20 days and more. Water boarding has occurred.

If you think this is an OK way for the United States Of America to treat its prisoners then for God sake say so, and stop throwing ridiculous insults at any who would disagree with the direction the Bush Administration has decided to take the country.

Lastly, of course we don’t torture–we only engage in extraordinary rendition! God I love how we are playing the PR game.

He was tortured in Saudi Arabia. Not the United States.

The 8 November car-bomb attack in the Saudi capital, Riyadh, was a strong reminder that Al-Qaeda — or terrorist groups using Al-Qaeda techniques — remain a potent threat, despite a recent crackdown on militants in the country. This time, the target was a housing complex for mostly non-Saudi Arabs, leaving many to ponder the ultimate goal of such attacks. What purpose does killing innocent Muslims serve?

A group of British and American Shiite Muslims of Iraqi descent said they had been beaten on Sunday by the Saudi religious police because of their nationalities and the fact they were holding Shiite-style prayers.

Bush administration officials are expressing increasing anger at what they say has been Saudi Arabia’s counterproductive role in the Iraq war.

The papers are full of this from all over the world. Let us not forget that this is Muslims killing Muslims with attempts at non muslims from time to time.

Theres two sides to every story. The only one we hear is the antiwar screaming so loud that air raid sirens cant be heard over their din. Instead the world..led by the antiwar…say oh stop, lets put our head in the sand and it will go away. Just as long as the torture, murder, extortions, kidnappings and mass murders take place somewhere else all is good with the world.

This is just another example of using a torture story from a country that has used torture since the beginning of time to somehow convince readers that THIS is what the USA is doing.