Vaginas, In Michigan and Elsewhere
I am enormously proud to call this woman my friend, and to do everything I can to promote her work. I believe she is the most important voice speaking out on sexism today. This video is in relation to her recent attendance at the 2012 National Organization for Women’s national conference, and to the celebration of and by Eve Ensler there.
(Warning: a few four-letter words.)
The things Karen speaks of are things no one wants to hear or talk about–neither old-school “social conservatives” nor modern day “liberals.” In the best tradition of old school journalism, she afflicts the comforted and comforts the afflicted, and she has the audacity to say it out loud when the Emperor has no clothes. Even when I don’t agree with everything she says, she says things that desperately need talking about that no one ever does. And the hatred and contempt she receives is only further proof of that to me. But you watch it and you be the judge.
References are here on the YouTube page.
(This item cross-posted to Dean’s World.)
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Anti-feminist squicked out by the perceived over-use of the word “vagina”. Not really a conversation that needs to happen again, in my opinion. But hey.
I found it astonishing and moving. Should be watched all the way through.
Karen is bisexual and writes erotica professionally; she isn’t squicked out by the word vagina, but rather, by the reduction of a woman’s personhood to vaginas. She’s also squicked out by mass rape and genocide in places like Congo. I suggest anyone who wonders what those things have to do with each other watch the entire video.
The eye-rolling and infantilization of EE for saying the word more than GWW thought prudent only allowed me to get half-way through. It was just way too obnoxious.
I can appreciate what she has to say about men being raped…and feel it is an important voice on that subject…that i truly appreciate…
What i do not appreciate about this is that she does has to reduce or minimize the effects of the violence predicated on women in order to speak of a much needed topic…
It as many of your post has an underlying dishonesty….
If one really wants to be an advocate for men that are abused, poor, or raped, then it would be so much cleaner to have a powerful voice for that rather than to use an issue to passively swipe and minimize women and their concerns…
There is a hidden agenda that comes across quite strongly here…
O.S.
I only watched part of the video, but I could readily tell where it was going.
I agree with you, focusing our attention on and action against violence — sexual and otherwise — towards males would be so much more effective if — in the process — sexual violence against women wasn’t pooh-poohed or marginalized, or even compared.
There was absolutely no minimzation of violence against women. None. I would suggest that those of you who did not finish watching it go back and do so before commenting further.
There is no “hidden agenda.”
OS, although you’re right that her anti-movement-feminism agenda comes through plainly, the fact is the video simply doesn’t do what you’re saying here. She repeatedly acknowledges violence against women and expresses concern and sympathy for its victims, which is more than Eve Ensler did toward male victims.
What I find curious is that you and Dorian (and to some extent Roro) are unable to receive her message. Dean is rather kindly hypothesizing that you haven’t watched the video, but I wonder if there’s a deeper issue. You seem to be holding Karen to a higher standard of even-handedness than you’re holding Eve. Dorian seems to be suggesting any comparison of violence against women with violence against men is inappropriate, no matter how much of either is going on.
No “deeper issue” here, Dr. J.
I am just as troubled about violence against men as I am about violence against women.
My view is that both issues can be discussed rationally and unemotionally without “using” one to get more sympathy or support for the other.
As to “comparing” the two. I grant you that comparisons can be appropriate, but the way they are done is important, and in this case the “comparisons” just left a bad taste in my mouth. But that is just a personal opinion. I do stand behind my other comments.
Thanks
I also would like to add, that I really don’t see the purpose of devoting half of a video (of what I saw) to discuss “vaginas,” when addressing a serious problem such as violence against men.
But that is just me.
Karen is to be commended for speaking the truth to power here. Feminism is the greatest .. I have ever encountered in my life. It was created by the New World Order elite government (SEE http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/02/310075.shtml for CIA agent Gloria Steinem and her many connections to Government in creating NOW, the NWO Media and many related topics) We must round up and collect a list of NOW members and have them put on the public State Registrys of child abusers for their stealthy relentless lobbying promoting Parental Alienation, disinformation campaigns against Parental Alienation Syndrome and campaign against the presumption of ‘shared parenting’ in Family Courts. NOW is the greastest problem our Nation faces and the cause of most of our societal ills and abuses against children and males. Keep on talking Karen because there are plenty who need to hear. Is there a Mrs. KONY? I do not know but the ..is very ripe here in America and it needs to be cleaned up fast. Thank you Karen. You should publish Eves entire speech on Vaginas at NOW so people can make the connection to Hitler rallies of past.
I hold the opinion and sense this presentation would of been more clear and honest if the issue of violence towards the masculine, especially as war crimes, had not been used as bait to make a passive aggressive swipe towards Eve Ensler….
Have not gone to a Vagina Dialogue event, but they are beneficial for some women and have effectively aided in releasing sexual stigma and internalized shame which does not belong to victims, but to the perpetrators of sexual violence….
And if EE says the word ‘vagina’ one time for every girl child or woman that has been violated and then shamed or minimized for the violation, then she is not even off the starting block….
For me, there is a basic principle of decency when speaking or writing about any of the horrific abuses of gross inhumanity whether that be about gender, race, or poverty….
There is no need to make someone else or their issues less in order for one to elevate their issue or self as more…
When someone enters the level of ‘my wound is bigger than yours and i am going to prove it to you’, by reducing another or group’s attempt do whatever they need to heal, then to roll the eyes and sneer at the another abused group….i would not call that advocacy but more in alignment with ‘woundology’…..
Would really like to hear more, but firmly feel this talk was dishonest and lacked pure advocacy for those violated… both for the males and females.
OS, I agree this video isn’t pure advocacy for victims. In fact I’d say it’s primarily an attack on feminism, and only incidentally advocacy. The sneering is at Eve Ensler, not at rape victims.
I think I perceive your point that she’s politicizing victims’ efforts to heal. And I’d agree, if Ensler’s speech seemed more about therapy than politics.
Thanks Dr. J… not good at finding words to express with clarity, your clarity is appreciated. Also appreciate the information about male violence in war. Would like to know more. What i react to here is about the advocacy style….Coming from rural Texas with its Jim Crow past, remember a similar energetic strategy which i do not see as integral.
In the rural South there is a derogatory term called ” gator baiting.”
I believe the term originated in American slave period, when it was pronounced that one would use little African American children as bait to catch alligators. Later in the Jim Crow South, it took on a different meaning that speaks to communication strategy of baiting another by throwing out an issue that the perceived ‘gator’ will take the bait only to get speared. How one baits becomes quite strategic to locate and harpoon your gator.
Am most open to hearing the concerns of men and women when it comes to sexism and how the liberation of the feminine has effected or left wounds to their own psyche..from the heart but not from a strategic manipulation of baiting practices….
Karen is strongly of the opinion that feminist groups, in particular, have spent the last few decades specifically and intentionally underplaying and dismissing female-on-male violence, female-on-female violence, demonizing men for violence, and genuinely and literally using brutal tactics to silence and demonize all dissent.
I tend to argue with her about this because I think there is noble intent behind much feminism, and that conservative traditionalists (through chivalry) tend to have the same “men are perpetrators women are victims” mentality, but I cannot deny the point that I’ve personally run into persons claiming to be feminists who are quite dismissive and even brutal about it–and I have talked to people attempting to run services for men here in the US (and in Canada) who have run into the exact sort of resistance to changed attitudes that Karen describes as going on in Congo (i.e. outright anger and dismissal at any suggestion that anyone other than women need assistance).
Erin Pizzey, founder of the world’s first domestic violence shelter, shares this opinion.
Even though I argue with Karen on this point frequently, I must admit I cannot refute the fact that it appears impossible to find a feminist group that is out front and vocal about violent women and about male victims; the few I’ve found suggest that violent women are rare, are almost always doing it only out of defense, suggest that most male victims are liars. If feminist groups are out front and vocal about wanting women and men to have the same rights and protections as each other, if they’re willing to hold women accountable as well as protect them, if they really want men to be treated the same, then, it would be nice to see them step forward and just say so. So far it’s been hard; most of what I’ve encountered when I’ve tried to talk to people about these issues is hostility, suggestions that I’m dishonest, that I have a hidden agenda, and so on. It’s really rather depressing. But it does look like this is a feminist issue to me one way or the other: either they’ve been mis-portrayed, in which case it would be nice to see them say so or, even better, just change their ways. YMMV and all that.
More interesting from Pizzey and others here:
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Thanks
archangel/dr.e
Dean, thanks, and can you tell me Karen’s last name? I know it must be here somewhere but cant see it at the moment.
Sparrow, I’m afraid I don’t understand the gator baiting analogy, because I don’t see anyone trying to bait or trap. Nor do I see a hidden agenda or anything passive-aggressive in the video. Its agenda seems overt, and there’s nothing passive about it. Karen has a specific beef with feminists, and she cites their portrayal of rape victims as one reason. IMHO she makes some legitimate points.
IMHO opinion Dr. J is she is using the abuse of African male war rape victims as the bait to evoke a her opposition to the American feminist movement…
It appears her primary angst is against feminism rather than a clean advocacy for the African war victims…
I find it distasteful to use the African male rape victims to further her anti-feminist agenda….for me that is the bait and who she is going after are the feminist…
Have chosen to not speak to feminism or anti-feminism here… but rather her style that comes across as manipulative, passive aggressive, which i see as a dishonest speaking style.
Then do you find it distasteful that Ensler uses the female victims in the Congo to further her feminist agenda in America? I’m afraid I don’t see the difference.
Dr. J. it is estimated that “one in three women is raped or beaten on our planet. On a planet of 7 billion people, that’s one billion women who experience this savage violence.”
Nothing in me can discount Eve Ensler or any person that is an advocate or those that are violated. Whether she is a ‘feminist’ or an advocate for the billion of women that have known this horror may she be successful in her endeavors…
**********
I will now stop commenting on this topic.. and will close with Eve Ensler’s wordss from an article she posted on 11/11/11 …
And join her fully— I Am Over It…for all women and men that have been sexually violated, exploited,or trafficked…
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I am over rape.
I am over rape culture, rape mentality, rape pages on Facebook.
I am over the thousands of people who signed those pages with their real names without shame.
I am over people demanding their right to rape pages, and calling it freedom of speech or justifying it as a joke.
I am over people not understanding that rape is not a joke and I am over being told I don’t have a sense of humor, and women don’t have a sense of humor, when most women I know (and I know a lot) are really fucking funny. We just don’t think that uninvited penises up our anus, or our vagina is a laugh riot.
I am over how long it seems to take anyone to ever respond to rape.
I am over Facebook taking weeks to take down rape pages.
I am over the hundreds of thousands of women in Congo still waiting for the rapes to end and the rapists to be held accountable.
I am over the thousands of women in Bosnia, Burma, Pakistan, South Africa, Guatemala, Sierra Leone, Haiti, Afghanistan, Libya, you name a place, still waiting for justice.
I am over rape happening in broad daylight.
I am over the 207 clinics in Ecuador supported by the government that are capturing, raping, and torturing lesbians to make them straight.
I am over one in three women in the U.S military (Happy Veterans Day!) getting raped by their so-called “comrades.”
I am over the forces that deny women who have been raped the right to have an abortion.
I am over the fact that after four women came forward with allegations that Herman Cain groped them and grabbed them and humiliated them, he is still running for the President of the United States.
And I’m over CNBC debate host Maria Bartiromo getting booed when she asked him about it. She was booed, not Herman Cain.
Which reminds me, I am so over the students at Penn State who protested the justice system instead of the alleged rapist pedophile of at least 8 boys, or his boss Joe Paterno, who did nothing to protect those children after knowing what was happening to them.
I am over rape victims becoming re-raped when they go public.
I am over starving Somalian women being raped at the Dadaab refugee camp in Kenya, and I am over women getting raped at Occupy Wall Street and being quiet about it because they were protecting a movement which is fighting to end the pillaging and raping of the economy and the earth, as if the rape of their bodies was something separate.
I am over women still being silent about rape, because they are made to believe it’s their fault or they did something to make it happen.
I am over violence against women not being a #1 international priority when one out of three women will be raped or beaten in her lifetime — the destruction and muting and undermining of women is the destruction of life itself.
No women, no future, duh.
I am over this rape culture where the privileged with political and physical and economic might, take what and who they want, when they want it, as much as they want, any time they want it.
I am over the endless resurrection of the careers of rapists and sexual exploiters — film directors, world leaders, corporate executives, movie stars, athletes — while the lives of the women they violated are permanently destroyed, often forcing them to live in social and emotional exile.
I am over the passivity of good men. Where the hell are you?
You live with us, make love with us, father us, befriend us, brother us, get nurtured and mothered and eternally supported by us, so why aren’t you standing with us? Why aren’t you driven to the point of madness and action by the rape and humiliation of us?
I am over years and years of being over rape.
And thinking about rape every day of my life since I was 5-years-old.
And getting sick from rape, and depressed from rape, and enraged by rape.
And reading my insanely crowded inbox of rape horror stories every hour of every single day.
I am over being polite about rape. It’s been too long now, we have been too understanding.
We need to OCCUPYRAPE in every school, park, radio, TV station, household, office, factory, refugee camp, military base, back room, night club, alleyway, courtroom, UN office. We need people to truly try and imagine — once and for all — what it feels like to have your body invaded, your mind splintered, your soul shattered. We need to let our rage and our compassion connect us so we can change the paradigm of global rape.
There are approximately one billion women on the planet who have been violated.
ONE BILLION WOMEN.
When I saw the vagina chronicles, I didnt know the author of it, nor her name. I cant say I saw it as “furthering a feminist agenda.” Being familiar with anna devere’s smith excellent narritives, I saw the author of ‘vagina chronicles’ as in the same league too as Anna, and also as Diane dePrima (I hope I spelled her name right) and other women who broke through the decades of cultural muffling that found women’s blood and tender parts to be too much for them… to a performance piece about many topics revolving around a central leitmotif– that said much about women — and several of these matters were spoken about in public. Without shame. Although as I recall, there was a lot about shame, and grief- and dignity- in the performance piece.
As we’ve mentioned many times here at TMV, there is no pat definition of ‘moderate,’ no pat monolith of feminism, nor re a Republican, nor Democrat, nor Libertarian, nor ‘men’ in general, nor ‘women’ or teens or babies or elders.
I get what Dean is saying about his perception. And I get what Sparrow is saying about her perceptions. Just my .02: Both are very clear. And the issue of tone and facial expressions in the person on video is picked up by Sparrow and Dorian, I can see. There’s a saying in communication, that one could be saying ‘I love you,’ but if commnicated with scorn or sarcasm, the tone and facial expression of distaste (whether the speaker means this or not) is what will be remembered by many, and the message often lost. [watching candidates for the presidency in the last many months is a real study in these matters of 'communication' or lack of it.]
To me, a bog is created if one speaks of ‘feminism’ or anti-feminism, or man-ism, or anti-manism, in the same way many speak of other groups… a mass of people who are deemed to be in no-think and are somehow interchangeable. I dont think they are. I think groups are held by at least one principle in solidarity, but even that may morph and not remain ‘solid’ as times goes on and people learn more and new challenges present themselves.
And I think most in most groups do think. I know many of us feel at a disadvantage when we are not able to better know the people personally in groups, any group. Very easy to project negatives on others then.
And Sparrow, thank you for your redemptive post on my articles re Orwell’s 1984 about the man in our time who in public stripped a male elder of dignity, and then later not only apologized publicly, but gave us insight into what actually happened to him when he happened into a group, many of whom were mocking others. That was class.
dr.e
Thanks, O.S. for posting the “I am over rape.”
Powerful, touching and convincing without bashing those who fight violence against men.
Thanks Dr. E…..
Dean, the place i strongly agree with you on the need for advocacy for male victims and feel it is short sighted to not include male victims… so detest when these kinds of issues become politicized because i do not see Left or Right, male or female, male against woman, or woman against males, I see faces.
The faces that come to me are ones of cherished sensitive honorable male friends that took years and years to find their way through the stigma to begin a long difficult healing process. I have worked with and see the faces of men that murdered women, many of them were severely abused or humiliated by family members that included women. I see the faces of male sexual predators that have returned to society, and are perhaps even more impriosened by society than when they were behind bars. Most of them are deeply wounded by sexual abuse that was perpetrated on them as children… A couple of weeks ago listened ago listened to man released from prison for sexual molestation. He says in the midst of a very nasty divorce his wife manipulated his young daughter and accused him of sexual molestation, he was a successful business owner. He was convicted, sent to prison and lost everything. I believe him and know this is not an isolated account. He did his time, then steps out into a society as an outcast…. He is trapped in a job with a most sadistic boss and because he has found out he has so few options, he continues to do heavy manual labor even though he has severe hernia… no insurance….not enough money to pay the hospital upfront, plus the shame barrier is so great, he cannot push himself through it to get basic care. He lives in a broken down apartment and the woman and grown daughter that lives above him as found out that he is listed on the sexual predator listing, so each time he attempts to take a shower they go in and repeatedly flush the toilet which causes him to be scalded….In the midst of the Sandusky trials and all of this i see his face… I lived in Africa and know directly the intense prejudice of homosexuality and when men are violated they are so often seen as homosexual and called ‘ bush wife ‘, which leads to extreme isolation…I see their faces….
Men are abused and men are abused by women also. When that occurs there are huge personal and societal hurdles to overcome. We would like to think that sexual male violence only occurs over there, by uncouth and savage nations. I see the faces of Abu Ghraib and their sexual humiliation which was blatant sexual abuse that was used for power and control by us, the home of the brave…The rape of men in prison is just part of prison culture for many and what is our societal attitude towards the victims in that situation?
It seems to politicize rape, to politicize compassion, to politicize the sexes against each other, to politicize poverty, to politicize hunger, to politicize health care, to politicize gender and sexual choice, to name just a few, is the worst of America, and when i see how far we have moved that direction am heart broken and the only way out i know is to clean it up, and see sexual exploitation and violence to be about those that violate, not about male or female, or about pro vs. anti……
If i could speak directly to ones like Eve Ensler would first commend her work and what it takes to keep going…And would also suggest that she be more inclusive towards male victims, for it is imperative for both females and males… I don’t want to get in another sterotype mentality here, but my experience is that one of the differences that can and does occur occur with sexual violence is that women have more of a tendency to internalize the abuse, often turn it against themselves, whereas the male has more of a tendency to externalize the abuse, which can create more abuse towards others. And even can be used as another stereotype. If that is true it to not attend the the wounding of the male is a huge gap that does not serve either male or female in the prevention of rape violence.
Dean fully honor your voice for the social stereotype and stigma of male violence, as well as poverty, and the ongoing hateful slurs at Southern males… do hear what you have the heart to say, it needs to be said. Thanks
Karen generally chooses to keep her last name out of public view to avoid harassment although she has done public interviews where she’s given it; I’m thus in an awkward position when you ask because it’s not a secret but she prefers it not be thrown around. However she does have a comment account here which she uses on occasion, I’ll see if she’d like to come in and answer here so she can speak for herself.
I would not that I generally agree completely that male and female victims are both deserving of compassion; nevertheless I too perceive a widespread tendency to dismiss, marginalize, and ignore female perpetrators, and to be highly gynocentric when it comes to discussions of violence, including sexual violence. The following BBC report, which Karen gave reference to in her video, gives more on that:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00vxx55
It appears to many eyes, including my own, that though we do not see the same level of brutality here in the US, we do still tend to have an absurdly gynocentric view of violence here, with “women’s groups” pretty unwilling to face these issues from anything other than a gynocentric view. Now perhaps that’s an unfair criticism to some level; after all, how can you not call someone whose main claim to fame “The Vagina Monologues” anything other than gynocentric, you could hardly write such a thing otherwise! Likewise, I suppose something called the National Organization for Women cannot be expected to be devoted to male advocacy; but at the same time, when things like this are routinely ignored, who will speak?
I’ll ask Karen if she’d like to come in to this discussion.
Yeah, on the phone with Karen now and she says that given the large number of Men’s Activists she knows personally who’ve received harassment and death threats (and I know a couple too) she isn’t interested in putting her name in public. Yes, she is an unapologetic men’s advocate. She is an unabashed criticism of feminism because of her belief that it’s gynocentric and marginalizes males and cares about her sons and the men in her life and she views these groups as hostile to them. Those are her opinions. She can come by to defend if she wants, but also, her YouTube comments section is open and her email is published and you’ll generally find she’s very friendly and easy to talk to.
I personally agree with Sparrow above that I detest that these become men vs. women issue when they should be human rights issues. I don’t know how to get over that impasse. But in the interests of keeping the discussion open I may go ahead and put that BBC article on the front page.
Feminists also care for and love the men in our lives, too. Many of us find the traditional view of masculinity to be hostile to those men, in addition to ourselves.
In addition, I did not find GWW to be particularly friendly or easy to talk to the last time she came around.
One of the things I always say is that traditional conservatism is no friend to men; it glorifies them in certain ways but enslaves them in many others, treating them essentially as disposable commodities deserving of contempt if they do not act and product the way they’re “supposed” to. I’ve seen it first hand.
Although I noticed Karen (who is extremely friendly and approachable, and though she won’t apologize for her views she almost always has references available to back her claims up) has said the same thing, both in previous videos and in this one.
Anyway, don’t know if she’ll be back, she felt a lot of animosity and hostility here last time but possibly things have settled down, dunno. Her YouTube comments remain open.
” she felt a lot of animosity and hostility here last time ”
She brought a lot herself. That post was about how feminists are a hate group, and she was extremely personally insulting to those of us who objected to that characterization.
It’s ok Dean. No public person needs to tell others their full name as far as I know. I just wondered since most of us have had hideous incursions and intrusions into our private lives because of our public profiles, including as you know, criminal intrustions, but/and we continue in our full names. But I grant that that is a choice.
It’s interesting how different people can have different memories and perspectives on events.