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	<title>Comments on: SCOTUS Rejects Church/State Cases</title>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-100209</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/#comment-100209</guid>
		<description>&quot;If you start banning people on the basis that under the same rules people you really donâ€™t like will get in then the room will just have to stand empty.&quot;

When my children argued about shared  toys, I sometimes settled the argument by taking away the toys.  It wasn&#039;t a principled, philosophical solution.
It was 1) to save my sanity, and 2) to give everyone a time-out, a chance to calm down and find a compromise.

These days, when EVERYTHING is controversial, an empty room may be the only way out.
In more rational times, I would favor allowing the room used for quilting bees fingerpainting classes
or other like activities.

There are rational  compromises available to communities, parhaps by instituting some basic guidelines.  The empty room solution is not necessarily the best solution.  It becomes the only solution only when people take an all-or-nothing attitude.

Of course, when I say things like &#039;rational&#039; and &#039;compromise&#039;, I&#039;m probably thinking of another planet, or, at least, another time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If you start banning people on the basis that under the same rules people you really donâ€™t like will get in then the room will just have to stand empty.&#8221;</p>
<p>When my children argued about shared  toys, I sometimes settled the argument by taking away the toys.  It wasn&#8217;t a principled, philosophical solution.<br />
It was 1) to save my sanity, and 2) to give everyone a time-out, a chance to calm down and find a compromise.</p>
<p>These days, when EVERYTHING is controversial, an empty room may be the only way out.<br />
In more rational times, I would favor allowing the room used for quilting bees fingerpainting classes<br />
or other like activities.</p>
<p>There are rational  compromises available to communities, parhaps by instituting some basic guidelines.  The empty room solution is not necessarily the best solution.  It becomes the only solution only when people take an all-or-nothing attitude.</p>
<p>Of course, when I say things like &#8216;rational&#8217; and &#8216;compromise&#8217;, I&#8217;m probably thinking of another planet, or, at least, another time.</p>
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		<title>By: Davebo</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-100202</link>
		<dc:creator>Davebo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 21:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/#comment-100202</guid>
		<description>What about L Ron Hubbard books in the library???

OK, just kidding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about L Ron Hubbard books in the library???</p>
<p>OK, just kidding.</p>
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		<title>By: beaverton_jewboy</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-100200</link>
		<dc:creator>beaverton_jewboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/#comment-100200</guid>
		<description>Lynx-

I see what you&#039;re saying. And I suspect they would have argued the same thing, I believe it&#039;s called &quot;Viewpoint Neutrality,&quot; though I could be wrong.

Even a KKK meeting, as messed up as it is, is an attempt at civic participation. They are dealing with political issues, and serving a secular purpose. As I said, if the Church in question were having some &lt;em&gt;activity&lt;/em&gt;, even a Bible study, that&#039;d be different. But they were having a &lt;em&gt;worship service.&lt;/em&gt; If you read the AP article, they are blatant about trying to &lt;em&gt;proselytize library patrons.&lt;/em&gt; That crosses the line from having the library house a group&#039;s activity, to having the library assist a religious group.

And I get the feeling they were being, if not loud, disruptive to patrons. If &lt;em&gt;any&lt;/em&gt; group, even The Super-Gay Quilting Bee, started asking patrons if they wanted to take up gay quilting while the patrons were trying to read their Kirk/Spock Fanfiction on library computers, they&#039;d get kicked out, too.

But that&#039;s a practicality. In the ideal, religion in this country is required to find it&#039;s own way without government handouts. In return, we get unprecedented religious freedom. Even thought the Fundies cry foul, it&#039;s a system which has benefitted them, and all of us, immensely. We shouldn&#039;t chip away at the separation between church and state, and I&#039;m glad the SC didn&#039;t feel the need to rehash a good ruling. I&#039;m surprised, fankly. But pleased.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lynx-</p>
<p>I see what you&#8217;re saying. And I suspect they would have argued the same thing, I believe it&#8217;s called &#8220;Viewpoint Neutrality,&#8221; though I could be wrong.</p>
<p>Even a KKK meeting, as messed up as it is, is an attempt at civic participation. They are dealing with political issues, and serving a secular purpose. As I said, if the Church in question were having some <em>activity</em>, even a Bible study, that&#8217;d be different. But they were having a <em>worship service.</em> If you read the AP article, they are blatant about trying to <em>proselytize library patrons.</em> That crosses the line from having the library house a group&#8217;s activity, to having the library assist a religious group.</p>
<p>And I get the feeling they were being, if not loud, disruptive to patrons. If <em>any</em> group, even The Super-Gay Quilting Bee, started asking patrons if they wanted to take up gay quilting while the patrons were trying to read their Kirk/Spock Fanfiction on library computers, they&#8217;d get kicked out, too.</p>
<p>But that&#8217;s a practicality. In the ideal, religion in this country is required to find it&#8217;s own way without government handouts. In return, we get unprecedented religious freedom. Even thought the Fundies cry foul, it&#8217;s a system which has benefitted them, and all of us, immensely. We shouldn&#8217;t chip away at the separation between church and state, and I&#8217;m glad the SC didn&#8217;t feel the need to rehash a good ruling. I&#8217;m surprised, fankly. But pleased.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynx</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-100196</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 19:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/#comment-100196</guid>
		<description>Doma, true, if one religious group is allowed all of them should, satanists or whatever. Again, that goes for everything. I&#039;m sure political groups hold meetings there; if you allow the local chapter of say, MoveOn to use the room, you need to allow NAMBLA to do so as well. If you start banning people on the basis that under the same rules people you really don&#039;t like will get in then the room will just have to stand empty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doma, true, if one religious group is allowed all of them should, satanists or whatever. Again, that goes for everything. I&#8217;m sure political groups hold meetings there; if you allow the local chapter of say, MoveOn to use the room, you need to allow NAMBLA to do so as well. If you start banning people on the basis that under the same rules people you really don&#8217;t like will get in then the room will just have to stand empty.</p>
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		<title>By: University Update - Yahoo - SCOTUS Rejects Church/State Cases</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-100195</link>
		<dc:creator>University Update - Yahoo - SCOTUS Rejects Church/State Cases</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/#comment-100195</guid>
		<description>[...]                           SCOTUS Rejects Church/State Cases &#187;  This Summary is from an article posted at The Moderate Voice Â» Domestic and international news [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]                           SCOTUS Rejects Church/State Cases &#187;  This Summary is from an article posted at The Moderate Voice Â» Domestic and international news [...]</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-100193</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/#comment-100193</guid>
		<description>The bottom line;  what would be the reaction if Muslims wanted to use a library for prayers?
What about a voodoo session?

If religious groups are to have  &#039;equal&#039; considetation, then all religious groups should.

Consequences have to be considered.  With some controversies, it works better to simply avoid them when possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The bottom line;  what would be the reaction if Muslims wanted to use a library for prayers?<br />
What about a voodoo session?</p>
<p>If religious groups are to have  &#8216;equal&#8217; considetation, then all religious groups should.</p>
<p>Consequences have to be considered.  With some controversies, it works better to simply avoid them when possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynx</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-100188</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/#comment-100188</guid>
		<description>beaverton_jewboy, doesn&#039;t really fail any gut-check for me, and I&#039;m a rather militant atheist myself. If you argue that allowing a group to use a library amounts to subsidizing that activity, you could make that argument for almost anyone. What if a really nasty political group wants to hold a meeting, like the KKK or the neonazis or some such garbage? I&#039;m sure that any SF library would love to ban them, while accepting a Human Rights Watch meeting with open arms. It FEELS right, but it&#039;s basically choosing who gets in the door on the basis of ideology, which public facilities should not be in the business of doing.

Likewise, I don&#039;t see why a faith group should have any less right to a public room than any other group. I dislike the special treatment that religious faith is given in this country, but that doesn&#039;t mean I think they should get WORSE treatment. As long as they don&#039;t disturb anyone or take up too much of the time/space available (something that should apply to any group) my gut feeling is that they should not be barred from the library.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>beaverton_jewboy, doesn&#8217;t really fail any gut-check for me, and I&#8217;m a rather militant atheist myself. If you argue that allowing a group to use a library amounts to subsidizing that activity, you could make that argument for almost anyone. What if a really nasty political group wants to hold a meeting, like the KKK or the neonazis or some such garbage? I&#8217;m sure that any SF library would love to ban them, while accepting a Human Rights Watch meeting with open arms. It FEELS right, but it&#8217;s basically choosing who gets in the door on the basis of ideology, which public facilities should not be in the business of doing.</p>
<p>Likewise, I don&#8217;t see why a faith group should have any less right to a public room than any other group. I dislike the special treatment that religious faith is given in this country, but that doesn&#8217;t mean I think they should get WORSE treatment. As long as they don&#8217;t disturb anyone or take up too much of the time/space available (something that should apply to any group) my gut feeling is that they should not be barred from the library.</p>
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		<title>By: Health &#187; SCOTUS Rejects Church/State Cases</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-100185</link>
		<dc:creator>Health &#187; SCOTUS Rejects Church/State Cases</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/#comment-100185</guid>
		<description>[...] unknown wrote an interesting post today onHere&#8217;s a quick excerptMy parents were not happy about the birth control option, but it made the world of difference for her health, so they did it. It was that, or have her take prescription painkillers every month. The other case was over a group of &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] unknown wrote an interesting post today onHere&#8217;s a quick excerptMy parents were not happy about the birth control option, but it made the world of difference for her health, so they did it. It was that, or have her take prescription painkillers every month. The other case was over a group of &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: beaverton_jewboy</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-100184</link>
		<dc:creator>beaverton_jewboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/#comment-100184</guid>
		<description>Smelling salts, eh?

As a member of the Hebrew tribe, I am well aware that most Christians, while not necessarily anti-Semitic, do hold strange and distorted views of Judaism.

I find it deeply troubling that these people would have a &quot;right,&quot; as the poster implies, to have my tax dollars subsidize their controversial and threatening worship.

If they were meeting there to knit or play bingo, that&#039;s another story. But worship? People singing praises to their God(s) in a public library? That doesn&#039;t fail a gut check for you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Smelling salts, eh?</p>
<p>As a member of the Hebrew tribe, I am well aware that most Christians, while not necessarily anti-Semitic, do hold strange and distorted views of Judaism.</p>
<p>I find it deeply troubling that these people would have a &#8220;right,&#8221; as the poster implies, to have my tax dollars subsidize their controversial and threatening worship.</p>
<p>If they were meeting there to knit or play bingo, that&#8217;s another story. But worship? People singing praises to their God(s) in a public library? That doesn&#8217;t fail a gut check for you?</p>
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		<title>By: GadgetGadget.info - Gadgets on the web &#187; SCOTUS Rejects Church/State Cases</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-100180</link>
		<dc:creator>GadgetGadget.info - Gadgets on the web &#187; SCOTUS Rejects Church/State Cases</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/15393/scotus-rejects-churchstate-cases/#comment-100180</guid>
		<description>[...] Jonathan Bailey wrote an interesting post today!.Here&#8217;s a quick excerptThe decidedly right-leaning SCOTUS has only been at work a couple of hours and already set the stage by refusing to grant certiorari to two church-state cases and social conservative groups are not going to be pleased. &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jonathan Bailey wrote an interesting post today!.Here&#8217;s a quick excerptThe decidedly right-leaning SCOTUS has only been at work a couple of hours and already set the stage by refusing to grant certiorari to two church-state cases and social conservative groups are not going to be pleased. &#8230; [...]</p>
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