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	<title>Comments on: Reading Ahmadinejad: Underlying the Bombastic</title>
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		<title>By: Jilly Dybka</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15285/reading-ahmadinejad-underlying-the-bombastic/comment-page-1/#comment-99900</link>
		<dc:creator>Jilly Dybka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/places/asia/middle-east/15285/reading-ahmadinejad-underlying-the-bombastic/#comment-99900</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m  not sure why finger pointing &amp; not toe pointing ... maybe sometimes an index finger is just an index finger hahaha.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m  not sure why finger pointing &#038; not toe pointing &#8230; maybe sometimes an index finger is just an index finger hahaha.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Clarissa Pinkola EstÃ©s</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15285/reading-ahmadinejad-underlying-the-bombastic/comment-page-1/#comment-99486</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Clarissa Pinkola EstÃ©s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/places/asia/middle-east/15285/reading-ahmadinejad-underlying-the-bombastic/#comment-99486</guid>
		<description>Domajot, thank you re my time. Your insights are good. Intercultural studies is part of my early psych. training along with forensics. Cultural groups have &#039;learned&#039; gestures, yes, also universal gestures that go beyond spec. cultures. (You prob recall I analyze film, photographic evidence and documents for lawyers, judges, law enforcement for these last 37 years. I always hesitate to put such vitae line in articles since its somewhere in the tmv bio I think; but perhaps I ought.) 

aggression/ feigned injury and â€˜aggression + victimâ€™ appear to be two sides of same coin; control. Control is not just attempts to make others do x. Itâ€™s uninterrupted efforts to calm a constant unpleasant flurry inside oneself, by controlling what occurs outside oneself. A certain amount of trying to control the environs is the norm and survival oriented. You are accurate in thinking you&#039;ve/we&#039;ve seen a good deal of this configuration. What is uncommon is to also find petulance and miming of injury in a person of such power as that carried by MA. 

To make such a brief analysis of MA, I looked at several other film clips of other men from his culture-- Looking at the Shah for instance (late 20th c.) you see a different demeanor than MAâ€™s entirely.

I also looked as Jilly Dybka noted, at two clips of Hitler, who has the same throw-away long arm extensions, a good deal of finger pointing and â€˜attestingâ€™ gesticulating, and interestingly literally &#039;holds himself&#039; in an embrace with both arms while speaking, as well as hand-clasping in between bursts of speech... as though, unlike MA, to NOT let his very excited body run away with him while he, like MA, was in â€˜high oratoryâ€™ mode. 

I&#039;d thought to put the links to both clips, Hitler&#039;s and MA&#039;s on this article, but am truly trying to &#039;write shorter&#039; instead of practically writing a book each time ...but you can go to YouTube and see for yourself the contrasts between the two. 

â€œWhen does an aggressor not use the &#039;Hey THEY made me do it&#039; excuse?â€ I think Domajot, some instances are... when more solid people just had an outburst that is uncharacteristic, or perhaps a person consciously learning to control their &#039;pounces and blurts&#039;... they often say apologies and mean it... and show it, by trying to give more forethought about others instead of only themselves. There are instances of fair people being aggressive in order to win or land something important in service of vulnerable others; though they might be injured in those battles, they tend to remain self-accountable, not whining as victim in order to gain a toehold. 

However, the &#039;punch you in the face&#039; and subsequent &#039;how can you be so cruel as to call me on my own violence??&#039; is often a ploy in those who use it to deflect and defer others from judgments that might curtail the &#039;victim.&#039; It is meant to show superiority and self-importance, but in fact often reveals the primal injury: el estomago vacio, the very hungry stomach of the personâ€™s psyche... that bypasses sincerity, humanity, regard for self and the world for..... feed me, feed me, feed me...instead 

This psychic configuration is also confusing to people at first; Many persons are inclined, at least at first, to be sympathetic and to think, my goodness, he/she is hungry, in need of respect, regard, how can we feed him/her?

Later, as people see that that â€˜bucket cannot be filled&#039;... they are appalled. Eventually, they think about how to expose and depose. Then much back and forth arguing about whether this is really needed, or how to... Often, somewhere in that &#039;all sides trying to come to terms with,&#039; somewhere in that melee, then, finally one group or another acts to strip powers from such a person.

Much of the time in world affairs, the populace becomes mired in the back and forth of deciding the effectiveness-failure, goodness or not-goodness of the &#039;minaret-like&#039; person who calls others to pray before them... sometimes focus is lost until a group, often a small but powerful group, says, &quot;Enough!&quot; and acts, hopefully with precision instead of scatter shot, to bring a denouement. 

Jilly Dybka, you are accurate. Lots of finger&#039;pointers&#039; in cultures.  Literally. And figuratively. Just to add some levity to such serious matters, sometimes I wonder, why not toe-pointing, or ear pointing? lol. 

Also, the MacArthur genius grants; so many wish for them, and it&#039;s a good day when â€˜the very fewâ€™ are granted them. Itâ€™s amazing that the national grants have dwindled so from direct strike/severance by Congress, and that private grants, like MacArthur far outstrip Govâ€™t support of the arts. But, that is a whole OTHER argument amongst many. 

Though most of us for decades had only a walking stick and a bindle bag, still, thank you JD, for bringing that today some artists are deliriously happy they have recognition and financial resource ($500K ea.) to stabilize, to complete or continue or begin new work. Thatâ€™s a blessing that will hopefully ripple outward far, far beyond those artistsâ€™/ thinkersâ€™ personal reach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Domajot, thank you re my time. Your insights are good. Intercultural studies is part of my early psych. training along with forensics. Cultural groups have &#8216;learned&#8217; gestures, yes, also universal gestures that go beyond spec. cultures. (You prob recall I analyze film, photographic evidence and documents for lawyers, judges, law enforcement for these last 37 years. I always hesitate to put such vitae line in articles since its somewhere in the tmv bio I think; but perhaps I ought.) </p>
<p>aggression/ feigned injury and â€˜aggression + victimâ€™ appear to be two sides of same coin; control. Control is not just attempts to make others do x. Itâ€™s uninterrupted efforts to calm a constant unpleasant flurry inside oneself, by controlling what occurs outside oneself. A certain amount of trying to control the environs is the norm and survival oriented. You are accurate in thinking you&#8217;ve/we&#8217;ve seen a good deal of this configuration. What is uncommon is to also find petulance and miming of injury in a person of such power as that carried by MA. </p>
<p>To make such a brief analysis of MA, I looked at several other film clips of other men from his culture&#8211; Looking at the Shah for instance (late 20th c.) you see a different demeanor than MAâ€™s entirely.</p>
<p>I also looked as Jilly Dybka noted, at two clips of Hitler, who has the same throw-away long arm extensions, a good deal of finger pointing and â€˜attestingâ€™ gesticulating, and interestingly literally &#8216;holds himself&#8217; in an embrace with both arms while speaking, as well as hand-clasping in between bursts of speech&#8230; as though, unlike MA, to NOT let his very excited body run away with him while he, like MA, was in â€˜high oratoryâ€™ mode. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d thought to put the links to both clips, Hitler&#8217;s and MA&#8217;s on this article, but am truly trying to &#8216;write shorter&#8217; instead of practically writing a book each time &#8230;but you can go to YouTube and see for yourself the contrasts between the two. </p>
<p>â€œWhen does an aggressor not use the &#8216;Hey THEY made me do it&#8217; excuse?â€ I think Domajot, some instances are&#8230; when more solid people just had an outburst that is uncharacteristic, or perhaps a person consciously learning to control their &#8216;pounces and blurts&#8217;&#8230; they often say apologies and mean it&#8230; and show it, by trying to give more forethought about others instead of only themselves. There are instances of fair people being aggressive in order to win or land something important in service of vulnerable others; though they might be injured in those battles, they tend to remain self-accountable, not whining as victim in order to gain a toehold. </p>
<p>However, the &#8216;punch you in the face&#8217; and subsequent &#8216;how can you be so cruel as to call me on my own violence??&#8217; is often a ploy in those who use it to deflect and defer others from judgments that might curtail the &#8216;victim.&#8217; It is meant to show superiority and self-importance, but in fact often reveals the primal injury: el estomago vacio, the very hungry stomach of the personâ€™s psyche&#8230; that bypasses sincerity, humanity, regard for self and the world for&#8230;.. feed me, feed me, feed me&#8230;instead </p>
<p>This psychic configuration is also confusing to people at first; Many persons are inclined, at least at first, to be sympathetic and to think, my goodness, he/she is hungry, in need of respect, regard, how can we feed him/her?</p>
<p>Later, as people see that that â€˜bucket cannot be filled&#8217;&#8230; they are appalled. Eventually, they think about how to expose and depose. Then much back and forth arguing about whether this is really needed, or how to&#8230; Often, somewhere in that &#8216;all sides trying to come to terms with,&#8217; somewhere in that melee, then, finally one group or another acts to strip powers from such a person.</p>
<p>Much of the time in world affairs, the populace becomes mired in the back and forth of deciding the effectiveness-failure, goodness or not-goodness of the &#8216;minaret-like&#8217; person who calls others to pray before them&#8230; sometimes focus is lost until a group, often a small but powerful group, says, &#8220;Enough!&#8221; and acts, hopefully with precision instead of scatter shot, to bring a denouement. </p>
<p>Jilly Dybka, you are accurate. Lots of finger&#8217;pointers&#8217; in cultures.  Literally. And figuratively. Just to add some levity to such serious matters, sometimes I wonder, why not toe-pointing, or ear pointing? lol. </p>
<p>Also, the MacArthur genius grants; so many wish for them, and it&#8217;s a good day when â€˜the very fewâ€™ are granted them. Itâ€™s amazing that the national grants have dwindled so from direct strike/severance by Congress, and that private grants, like MacArthur far outstrip Govâ€™t support of the arts. But, that is a whole OTHER argument amongst many. </p>
<p>Though most of us for decades had only a walking stick and a bindle bag, still, thank you JD, for bringing that today some artists are deliriously happy they have recognition and financial resource ($500K ea.) to stabilize, to complete or continue or begin new work. Thatâ€™s a blessing that will hopefully ripple outward far, far beyond those artistsâ€™/ thinkersâ€™ personal reach.</p>
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		<title>By: Jilly Dybka</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15285/reading-ahmadinejad-underlying-the-bombastic/comment-page-1/#comment-99482</link>
		<dc:creator>Jilly Dybka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/places/asia/middle-east/15285/reading-ahmadinejad-underlying-the-bombastic/#comment-99482</guid>
		<description>H-tler did that &lt;a href=&quot;http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=-6E4H2nHmuo&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;pointing thing&lt;/a&gt; too. &amp; &lt;a href=&quot;http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=uqbDNTg2vR4&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mussolini&lt;/a&gt;.
(And &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiIP_KDQmXs&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bill Clinton&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Vs5570pKw&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Larry Craig&lt;/a&gt;.)

In better news, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.townonline.com/newton/homepage/x428366213&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;won&lt;/a&gt; a genius grant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>H-tler did that <a href="http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=-6E4H2nHmuo" rel="nofollow">pointing thing</a> too. &#038; <a href="http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=uqbDNTg2vR4" rel="nofollow">Mussolini</a>.<br />
(And <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiIP_KDQmXs" rel="nofollow">Bill Clinton</a> and <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Vs5570pKw" rel="nofollow">Larry Craig</a>.)</p>
<p>In better news, <a href="http://www.townonline.com/newton/homepage/x428366213" rel="nofollow">won</a> a genius grant.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15285/reading-ahmadinejad-underlying-the-bombastic/comment-page-1/#comment-99451</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/places/asia/middle-east/15285/reading-ahmadinejad-underlying-the-bombastic/#comment-99451</guid>
		<description>Very interesting analysis, Dr E!

I&#039;m curious about some aspects.

Body language, certainly hand signals, often reflect cultural customs or habits.  Were those taken into consideration, or do you consider some movements to be universal indicators independent of culture?

Also, I was surprised to read that the aggresoor+victim combination in a personality is considered rare. Relying simply on personal observations, with no official data, I would have guessed that it&#039;s extemely common.  When does an aggressor not use the &#039;they made me do it&#039; excuse?
The conqueror bears the burden of his destiny and is, therefore, a &#039;victim&#039; of his own power and capabilities.
I have the feeling I must be wrong about the commonness of this combination, but it keeps croping up to call my attention to it.

I you find the time, I would be interested to read your thoughts on this.  If you&#039;re too busy, please ignore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting analysis, Dr E!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious about some aspects.</p>
<p>Body language, certainly hand signals, often reflect cultural customs or habits.  Were those taken into consideration, or do you consider some movements to be universal indicators independent of culture?</p>
<p>Also, I was surprised to read that the aggresoor+victim combination in a personality is considered rare. Relying simply on personal observations, with no official data, I would have guessed that it&#8217;s extemely common.  When does an aggressor not use the &#8216;they made me do it&#8217; excuse?<br />
The conqueror bears the burden of his destiny and is, therefore, a &#8216;victim&#8217; of his own power and capabilities.<br />
I have the feeling I must be wrong about the commonness of this combination, but it keeps croping up to call my attention to it.</p>
<p>I you find the time, I would be interested to read your thoughts on this.  If you&#8217;re too busy, please ignore.</p>
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