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	<title>Comments on: Blackwater USA: A Law Unto Itself</title>
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		<title>By: Bones_708</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98793</link>
		<dc:creator>Bones_708</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 12:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>sdb I think most of the &quot;mercenary&quot; talk is bs. I know some guys who worked for BW and they would love to talk like they were mercenaries but when you here about the jobs, they were security. Talk about &quot;black&quot; ops. If it&#039;s black then how would anyone know? But since it&#039;s black there is no proof which frees the person making the claim from showing evidence............</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sdb I think most of the &#8220;mercenary&#8221; talk is bs. I know some guys who worked for BW and they would love to talk like they were mercenaries but when you here about the jobs, they were security. Talk about &#8220;black&#8221; ops. If it&#8217;s black then how would anyone know? But since it&#8217;s black there is no proof which frees the person making the claim from showing evidence&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: sdb</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98765</link>
		<dc:creator>sdb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 03:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Entropy
You are very dialed in and very articulate.  I think PMC&#039;s would fail if they were forced to be integrated into military.  All of these operators have prior service.  It is required (at least by BW).  There is a reason they no longer serve and it usually is not just money.  They typically despise being ordered around by the rear echelon types, they are frustrated with bureaucracy and petty BS.  All things the military does best.  Working for PMC&#039;s finally offer opportunities for operators to do what they do best, but on their terms.  They can opt out when they wish and even go home.  They are not bound by military hierarchy, but are bound by the code of military conduct.  The accountability should be exactly that which is required of those in active service which is what I believe order 17 attempts, in theory, to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Entropy<br />
You are very dialed in and very articulate.  I think PMC&#8217;s would fail if they were forced to be integrated into military.  All of these operators have prior service.  It is required (at least by BW).  There is a reason they no longer serve and it usually is not just money.  They typically despise being ordered around by the rear echelon types, they are frustrated with bureaucracy and petty BS.  All things the military does best.  Working for PMC&#8217;s finally offer opportunities for operators to do what they do best, but on their terms.  They can opt out when they wish and even go home.  They are not bound by military hierarchy, but are bound by the code of military conduct.  The accountability should be exactly that which is required of those in active service which is what I believe order 17 attempts, in theory, to do.</p>
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		<title>By: sdb</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98764</link>
		<dc:creator>sdb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 03:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/law-legal-matters/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/#comment-98764</guid>
		<description>Bones
The term mercenary may sometimes be fully accurate and apply.  The term gets a bad wrap though.  Some of these contractors operate on black op teams.  They do more than provide security, they reconnoiter, serveil, gather intelligence, conduct operations, and initiate contact.  Fifteen years ago when we employed a black op team, it often was for deniability sake.  Now it is done because it is cost effective, expediant, and reliable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bones<br />
The term mercenary may sometimes be fully accurate and apply.  The term gets a bad wrap though.  Some of these contractors operate on black op teams.  They do more than provide security, they reconnoiter, serveil, gather intelligence, conduct operations, and initiate contact.  Fifteen years ago when we employed a black op team, it often was for deniability sake.  Now it is done because it is cost effective, expediant, and reliable.</p>
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		<title>By: Bones_708</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98744</link>
		<dc:creator>Bones_708</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/law-legal-matters/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/#comment-98744</guid>
		<description>One thing to note &quot;Contractors&quot; also includes everything from dishwashers to truck drivers. Many if not most of the armed contractors do not work for the US but rather companies doing business in Iraq and the Iraqi govt itself. I&#039;ve had an ongoing argument with someone about the inaccuracy of calling these companies mercenaries. Their contracts are to protect people and/or property, not to combat the insurgency. Rather like policy and armed security, they may look the same but have different jobs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing to note &#8220;Contractors&#8221; also includes everything from dishwashers to truck drivers. Many if not most of the armed contractors do not work for the US but rather companies doing business in Iraq and the Iraqi govt itself. I&#8217;ve had an ongoing argument with someone about the inaccuracy of calling these companies mercenaries. Their contracts are to protect people and/or property, not to combat the insurgency. Rather like policy and armed security, they may look the same but have different jobs.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98711</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/law-legal-matters/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/#comment-98711</guid>
		<description>Entropy,

I think you&#039;re right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Entropy,</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re right.</p>
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		<title>By: Entropy</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98708</link>
		<dc:creator>Entropy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/law-legal-matters/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/#comment-98708</guid>
		<description>They should be integrated, but perhaps not into the military.  Blackwater, for instance, supports the DoS much more than the DoD (which doesn&#039;t much like them, frankly).  IMO, State needs to develop its own security arm to do what Blackwater and others currently do - in essence a &quot;secret service&quot; for State to provide overseas protection for State personnel and foreign leaders, etc.  This would ensure the monopoly of force remains with governmental, as opposed to commercial, organizations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They should be integrated, but perhaps not into the military.  Blackwater, for instance, supports the DoS much more than the DoD (which doesn&#8217;t much like them, frankly).  IMO, State needs to develop its own security arm to do what Blackwater and others currently do &#8211; in essence a &#8220;secret service&#8221; for State to provide overseas protection for State personnel and foreign leaders, etc.  This would ensure the monopoly of force remains with governmental, as opposed to commercial, organizations.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98705</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 18:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for the link, Enrtopy.

Re, all conctractors (especially ones for developmet), one problem in enforcing accountabiliry is the sub-contracting phase. From what I saw of Congressional hearings, that&#039;s where the accountability breaks down.  It&#039;s such a maze, that&#039;s it&#039;s eeen hard to track down the owners and the nation of origin of some of these firms.

Congress has been remiss in addressing the problems with pertinent laws.  The other impression I gelaned from the hearings was that the issues are so complex that many of our lawmakers are not fully grasping them.  

Re BW, the proposal that  they should be integrated into the military in some way has merit, IMO.  Certainly, there should be better co-ordination than there is now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link, Enrtopy.</p>
<p>Re, all conctractors (especially ones for developmet), one problem in enforcing accountabiliry is the sub-contracting phase. From what I saw of Congressional hearings, that&#8217;s where the accountability breaks down.  It&#8217;s such a maze, that&#8217;s it&#8217;s eeen hard to track down the owners and the nation of origin of some of these firms.</p>
<p>Congress has been remiss in addressing the problems with pertinent laws.  The other impression I gelaned from the hearings was that the issues are so complex that many of our lawmakers are not fully grasping them.  </p>
<p>Re BW, the proposal that  they should be integrated into the military in some way has merit, IMO.  Certainly, there should be better co-ordination than there is now.</p>
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		<title>By: Entropy</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98695</link>
		<dc:creator>Entropy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/law-legal-matters/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/#comment-98695</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://mountainrunner.us/2007/09/talking_about_pmcs.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This is a guy who knows what he&#039;s talking about.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mountainrunner.us/2007/09/talking_about_pmcs.html" rel="nofollow">This is a guy who knows what he&#8217;s talking about.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Entropy</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98681</link>
		<dc:creator>Entropy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/law-legal-matters/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/#comment-98681</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I donâ€™t understand. The taxpayer pays for contracting, under any circumstances. The difference is only in how the money is channeled.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The difference is the contractors are filling roles that government is not.  If one wants government to fill those roles, then the resources an legislation must be accomplished to make that happen.  This will likely cost more in the long-run because the government will maintain these capabilities regardless if it currently needs them or not.  With contractors, one can hire the capability only for as long as it is needed.

But even so, there is a limit to what contractors can do since they are not official agents of the US government.  The legal black-hole they are in is but one example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I donâ€™t understand. The taxpayer pays for contracting, under any circumstances. The difference is only in how the money is channeled.</p></blockquote>
<p>The difference is the contractors are filling roles that government is not.  If one wants government to fill those roles, then the resources an legislation must be accomplished to make that happen.  This will likely cost more in the long-run because the government will maintain these capabilities regardless if it currently needs them or not.  With contractors, one can hire the capability only for as long as it is needed.</p>
<p>But even so, there is a limit to what contractors can do since they are not official agents of the US government.  The legal black-hole they are in is but one example.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98678</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/law-legal-matters/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/#comment-98678</guid>
		<description>Ignore the last garbled straggle paragraph, please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ignore the last garbled straggle paragraph, please.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98677</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/law-legal-matters/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/#comment-98677</guid>
		<description>1. Immunity from Iraqi law is not a bad thing.  I wouldn&#039;t trust them to provide a fair trial for anyone.
US law needs revision, but in principle, that&#039;s the most sensible basis for prosecution.

2. Entropy- &quot;If you donâ€™t want contractors performing these functions, then the US taxpayer must make the resources available for government 
to do it&quot;

I don&#039;t understand.  The taxpayer pays for contracting, under any circumstances.  The difference is only in how the money is channeled.

3.  In some ways, at some times, contracting can be more efficient, I think.  It&#039;s more a question of applying strict standards and oversight.
It looks, sometimes, as if contractors are used precisely because they will not worry about the letter of military or State Dept regulations, and that&#039;s the problem.  They seem to get implicit, if not explicit, leeway for questionable actions

he taxpayer pays for contracting now.
It isn&#039;t a question (necessarily) of a greater tax burden if contractors were&#039;t used, the money would simply channeled differently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Immunity from Iraqi law is not a bad thing.  I wouldn&#8217;t trust them to provide a fair trial for anyone.<br />
US law needs revision, but in principle, that&#8217;s the most sensible basis for prosecution.</p>
<p>2. Entropy- &#8220;If you donâ€™t want contractors performing these functions, then the US taxpayer must make the resources available for government<br />
to do it&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t understand.  The taxpayer pays for contracting, under any circumstances.  The difference is only in how the money is channeled.</p>
<p>3.  In some ways, at some times, contracting can be more efficient, I think.  It&#8217;s more a question of applying strict standards and oversight.<br />
It looks, sometimes, as if contractors are used precisely because they will not worry about the letter of military or State Dept regulations, and that&#8217;s the problem.  They seem to get implicit, if not explicit, leeway for questionable actions</p>
<p>he taxpayer pays for contracting now.<br />
It isn&#8217;t a question (necessarily) of a greater tax burden if contractors were&#8217;t used, the money would simply channeled differently.</p>
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		<title>By: Davebo</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98670</link>
		<dc:creator>Davebo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/law-legal-matters/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/#comment-98670</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;As reported here yesterday, Iraq has withdrawn the license of the controversial security firm&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Memo to the Iraqi government.  You have to issue a license before you can withdraw it.   

As to the firms being immunized from prosecution in Iraqi courts by US law, how does that work again?

It could be we&#039;ve found an issue the Iraqi Parliament can all agree upon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>As reported here yesterday, Iraq has withdrawn the license of the controversial security firm</p></blockquote>
<p>Memo to the Iraqi government.  You have to issue a license before you can withdraw it.   </p>
<p>As to the firms being immunized from prosecution in Iraqi courts by US law, how does that work again?</p>
<p>It could be we&#8217;ve found an issue the Iraqi Parliament can all agree upon.</p>
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		<title>By: Entropy</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98668</link>
		<dc:creator>Entropy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/law-legal-matters/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/#comment-98668</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;There are more than 180,000 private contractors, including mercenaries, in Iraq. Astoundingly, this is more than the number of U.S. troops and a consequence of the Bush administrationâ€™s drive to outsource government work, even war work.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The ratio grows even more when you consider that a minority of US troops in Iraq are actually combat troops.  Most are, like the contractors, support.  So what you have is perhaps 60-70k fighters and perhaps 4 times that in terms of support.

Of course, one should also note that the contractors are not there solely to support the military.  In fact, the lack of capability among our other functions of government has necessitated a lot of the move to contracting in this war.  If one wants to solve the contracting problem, one needs to define, mandate and resource those missions among State, Treasury, etc.  In the course of nation-building, for example, State has few assets to protect its own sources, much less those of the weak and corrupt government we&#039;re trying to support.  So State must turn to contractors like Blackwater.  It&#039;s the same with many other non-military functions of our government.  In fact, I would suggest a significant percentage, if not a majority, of such contractors support others besides the US military.

A &lt;a href=&quot;http://usacac.leavenworth.army.mil/CAC/milreview/English/SepOct07/chialleriengseptoct07.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;great article on these issues (and more) was written by Gen. Chiarelli&lt;/a&gt; was just published in &lt;em&gt;Military Review&lt;/em&gt;.

In short, the contracting problem goes way beyond the military and extends to the US government as a whole.  If you don&#039;t want contractors performing these functions, then the US taxpayer must make the resources available for government to do it.

For those contractors that support wholly military operations, certainly Bush as expanded their use during his term, but one might suggest that the process began under Clinton and a GOP congress as part of the post-cold war draw-down.  At the same time as overall forces were being reduced, the mission set increased with a large, permanent presence in the Gulf, missions to the Balkans (twice), Somalia, etc. Even the darling of the left, Gen. Shinseki, was one of the biggest proponents of such &quot;transformation&quot; and modularization of the Army and contracting away many ancillary functions.

Personally, there is a happy medium here.  &quot;Contracting&quot; has always been a part of warfare and it will always be so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>There are more than 180,000 private contractors, including mercenaries, in Iraq. Astoundingly, this is more than the number of U.S. troops and a consequence of the Bush administrationâ€™s drive to outsource government work, even war work.</p></blockquote>
<p>The ratio grows even more when you consider that a minority of US troops in Iraq are actually combat troops.  Most are, like the contractors, support.  So what you have is perhaps 60-70k fighters and perhaps 4 times that in terms of support.</p>
<p>Of course, one should also note that the contractors are not there solely to support the military.  In fact, the lack of capability among our other functions of government has necessitated a lot of the move to contracting in this war.  If one wants to solve the contracting problem, one needs to define, mandate and resource those missions among State, Treasury, etc.  In the course of nation-building, for example, State has few assets to protect its own sources, much less those of the weak and corrupt government we&#8217;re trying to support.  So State must turn to contractors like Blackwater.  It&#8217;s the same with many other non-military functions of our government.  In fact, I would suggest a significant percentage, if not a majority, of such contractors support others besides the US military.</p>
<p>A <a href="http://usacac.leavenworth.army.mil/CAC/milreview/English/SepOct07/chialleriengseptoct07.pdf" rel="nofollow">great article on these issues (and more) was written by Gen. Chiarelli</a> was just published in <em>Military Review</em>.</p>
<p>In short, the contracting problem goes way beyond the military and extends to the US government as a whole.  If you don&#8217;t want contractors performing these functions, then the US taxpayer must make the resources available for government to do it.</p>
<p>For those contractors that support wholly military operations, certainly Bush as expanded their use during his term, but one might suggest that the process began under Clinton and a GOP congress as part of the post-cold war draw-down.  At the same time as overall forces were being reduced, the mission set increased with a large, permanent presence in the Gulf, missions to the Balkans (twice), Somalia, etc. Even the darling of the left, Gen. Shinseki, was one of the biggest proponents of such &#8220;transformation&#8221; and modularization of the Army and contracting away many ancillary functions.</p>
<p>Personally, there is a happy medium here.  &#8220;Contracting&#8221; has always been a part of warfare and it will always be so.</p>
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		<title>By: spanielboy</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/comment-page-1/#comment-98654</link>
		<dc:creator>spanielboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/law-legal-matters/15185/blackwater-usa-a-law-unto-itself/#comment-98654</guid>
		<description>It was bound to happen at sometime when a privatized security company was lowered the boom on, but I am surprised it was Blackwater.  If it were to be any other company, I would doubt the US Government would back it too much; but since Blackwater is tied to effectively to the Bush plan for Iraq, I doubt they will leave.

The military seems to have very small leverage over these PSD firms, and we saw with the fiasco of the US Government trying to investigate, charge, and prosecute a very questionable firm by the name of CusterBattles went.  So it is a shell game of where the legal oversight is for these firms - it ain&#039;t from: the military, contracts with either the US Government or one of its creatures (CPA), and the local nation.  Who is accountable for them?

There are fine people working for these firms, but one also must remember that these firms are there to make money first and foremost.  They can raise and wave the flag all they want, but it is all about the money.  At times these PSD teams may protect their VIP very well, but at the expense of local opinion that feel PSD firms are too aggressive in their duties and cause harm to others.  So again, who is accountable for their behavior in Iraq?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was bound to happen at sometime when a privatized security company was lowered the boom on, but I am surprised it was Blackwater.  If it were to be any other company, I would doubt the US Government would back it too much; but since Blackwater is tied to effectively to the Bush plan for Iraq, I doubt they will leave.</p>
<p>The military seems to have very small leverage over these PSD firms, and we saw with the fiasco of the US Government trying to investigate, charge, and prosecute a very questionable firm by the name of CusterBattles went.  So it is a shell game of where the legal oversight is for these firms &#8211; it ain&#8217;t from: the military, contracts with either the US Government or one of its creatures (CPA), and the local nation.  Who is accountable for them?</p>
<p>There are fine people working for these firms, but one also must remember that these firms are there to make money first and foremost.  They can raise and wave the flag all they want, but it is all about the money.  At times these PSD teams may protect their VIP very well, but at the expense of local opinion that feel PSD firms are too aggressive in their duties and cause harm to others.  So again, who is accountable for their behavior in Iraq?</p>
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