Comments on: Blackwater USA Kicked Out of Iraq

By: Gmecha: News for common Law and Lawyers » Blog Archive » Feb. 1-4, Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio)

Thu, 20 Sep 2007 00:23:30 +0000

[...] Blackwater USA Kicked Out of IraqThe Moderate Voice – Blackwater claimed that it was above the law, but when that Provisional Authority immunity from local criminal, civil first national elections are held looks like that order is just now being recended by Iraq. They were above the law [...]

By: Pyst

Pyst — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:19:42 +0000

“It does not shield them local prosecution for other unrelated activities. In other words, they can not just walk down the street and indescriminately kill someone without fear of prosecution.”

sdb, it did sheild them from local prosecution being that Iraq couldn’t do squat about it, and Blackwater just so happened to be operating where????

Yeah prosecution just like the US military, seen the recent (today) conclusions about Haditha? LOL

Blackwater is getting to do as it sees fit, and they aren’t going to be touched. Face it, they are a wild West show with MP9’s rolling through Iraq, and the video got out long ago on them.

By: Blackwater USA: A Law Unto Itself · Articles

Blackwater USA: A Law Unto Itself · Articles — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:09:20 +0000

[...] reported here yesterday, Iraq has withdrawn the license of the security firm, which provides many of the [...]

By: Blackwater USA: A Law Unto Itself » The Moderate Voice

Blackwater USA: A Law Unto Itself » The Moderate Voice — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:40:22 +0000

[...] reported here yesterday, Iraq has withdrawn the license of the security firm, which provides many of the [...]

By: Entropy

Entropy — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 03:44:46 +0000

That after all these years, the DOD has not released a clear policy paper (at least not to the public) on these matters is problematic in itself.

This issue goes way beyond policy. I can say with some assurance that the US military does have policies for dealing with contractors, but their legal status is another matter entirely. Obviously, Congress and the President are the bodies to address that issue.

By: sdb

sdb — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 03:12:46 +0000

PYST
You are correct about order 17 to the degree that it covers actions and activities of contractors which occur as a result of performing in their official capacity. The use of force to defend a convoy would not then be seen as murder just because the trigger was pulled by a civilian. It does not shield them local prosecution for other unrelated activities. In other words, they can not just walk down the street and indescriminately kill someone without fear of prosecution. Basically, order 17 is set up as a mechanism to prosecute crime as they do within the military. It permits the US to use military courts and federal law to prosecute contractors as they would active military. I am not saying that it is a perfect system and I do not intend to defend it. But contractors share the same accountability as the active military.

By: domajot

domajot — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:35:16 +0000

The report Entropy liked to provides a clear statement that contractored personnedl may not be prosecuted under Iraqi law.

It also states clearly that the question of under what laws the US could prosecute is as clear as mud and raises the concern that some could remain outside the law.

That after all these years, the DOD has not released a clear policy paper (at least not to the public) on these matters is problematic in itself.

It seems like hyperbole and conjecture is all we have.

By: Entropy

Entropy — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 01:51:15 +0000

In order to avoid the hyperbole and speculation that often accompanies these threads, I suggest everyone read this.

By: krit

krit — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 01:26:41 +0000

Well its a test of whether or not we really believe our own PR that Iraq is a sovereign state ruled by their own lawmakers, or a puppet state, manipulated periodically by occupiers whose agents are above Iraqi law. If we want the Iraqi govt to function to protect its own citizens, how can we step in and prevent them from doing so when it involves our own security companies???

By: domajot

domajot — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 01:13:40 +0000

I hear the State Dept has stepped in.. so now it’s government (US) vs governemtn (Iraq).

This was an incident waitng to happen. Now that it has, I feel sorry for Crocker, who is between two less than straightforward powers.

By: dan

dan — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 01:03:32 +0000

sdb, in a ridiculously long post that i didn’t fully read, said:

BW hires and holds its operators to the highest standards.
…
but BW should only minimally be held to account for the actions of rogues.

these two sentences seem quite diametrically opposed to me.

By: Pyst

Pyst — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:32:52 +0000

“It is also important to note why these private operators are so necessary and successful: they are not above the law, they just are not bound by the same bureaucracy and logistics as our military.”….are you so sure?

Order 17 gives all foreign personnel in the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority immunity from â€œlocal criminal, civil and administrative jurisdiction and from any form of arrest or detention other than by persons acting on behalf of their parent states.â€

U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer is expected to extend Order 17 as one of his last acts before shutting down the occupation next week, U.S. officials said. The order is expected to last an additional six or seven months, until the first national elections are held……looks like that order is just now being recended by Iraq.

They were above the law because the Whitehouse wasn’t about to do anything at all to them, and Iraq didn’t even have the power to do anything to them, and when they did I guess that was during their busy vacation schedule LOL.

I call bigtime BS on Blackwater being heroes or anything like that, opprotunists with itchy trigger fingers maybe, but not heroes.

By: sdb

sdb — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:46:23 +0000

The formation and or use of mercenaries is not at all unconstitutional. There are actually international laws which govern their use and activities. Mercenaries have been vital to virtually every U.S. conflict dating back to this countryâ€™s war for independence. They have always been a part of how we, and virtually every society dating back to the Roman Empire, wage war. To ask if our modern day elite warriors will choose a paycheck over patriotism is an admission of a lack of understanding of the highly motivated, brave, and patriotic members that comprise our special forces community. Admittedly, many operators are adrenalin junkies, however that does not make their work any less important, just, or patriotic.
Like the conventional special forces, the team leader of any detail, outlines the mission in a briefing once a warning order has been issued. Like military ops, the team leader is responsible for all assignments and hardware. As far as trust among operators, ask any in the SF community, these private operators endure the same if not worse operating conditions, and are selfless in combat, operating with the same sense of urgency and brotherhood, as those actively serving in the military. They have shown the same bravery and selflessness to save journalists (whom many of these operators despise) even at their own peril. Such acts are well documented, not well publicized.
It is also important to note why these private operators are so necessary and successful: they are not above the law, they just are not bound by the same bureaucracy and logistics as our military. They are however, just as accountable. They conduct their operations with efficiency, autonomy, and fluid professionalism. They may leave theater as they wish and are replaced if necessary by other capable operators. They work side-by-side with numerous government agencies, and are not lawless bandits.
My understanding is that a State Department motorcade came under fire and that the ensuing gun battle, which lasted more than 20 minutes, left some civilians dead and injured. This does not bare the hallmarks of a retaliatory strike or another Mai Lai Massacre. What it indicates is that it is almost impossible to tell friend from foe. It also confirms why we want to fight the enemy on their streets, not on U.S. soil. I think people have been so awe struck by the precision capability of todayâ€™s military (the video of the precision guided smart munitions penetrating the 18â€ vent / shaft on CNN during the first Gulf War comes to mind) , have lead Americans to believe we can wage a perfect war. Unfortunately, war is not perfect, nor is it a science. War is motivated process which uses strategy and execution to affect a desired outcome. Smart weapons are but a tool to assist in the execution of the strategy. But when the bullets start to fly, training takes over and we must rely on the experience and professional reactions of those entrusted to maintain security.
The State Department is aware of the incident and it is under investigation, however, even though the Iraqi Ministry announced the suspension of their operating license, my understanding is that, as of this writing, no formal notice has been issued to our State Department by the Iraqi government. The Interior Ministry spokesman may have jumped the gun a little here. I think they will find that it is virtually impossible to replace Blackwater because of the security vacuum it will absolutely cause. Too many of the Iraqi Ministry heads are protected by Blackwater, as are U.S. and allied envoys and dignitaries, as well as other important and strategic installations. Depending on the actual circumstances, BW will likely be either vindicated or receive a fine. I am confident that Erik Prince and Gary Jackson have taken contractual measures to ensure that Blackwater is insulated from incidents such as wrongful death, friendly fire, or collateral damage due to negligence. They are not immune to malicious intent.
The downside to this episode, other than the loss of innocent life if that proves to be the case, is that it will embolden the enemy, and may result in stricter rules of engagement by PMCâ€™s. This would be catastrophic to the security effort because many private operators will leave theater (justifiably) because of the bureaucratic handcuffs which would undermine their ability to operate and defend themselves. Others will just operate in even greater jeopardy with their hands tied. The enemy will also craft their attacks to take advantage of the new vulnerability this would cause among PMCâ€™s.
By the same token, I may be wrong and political pressures of an election year may prove too much for the spineless, and those tasked to protect, may yield to the anti-war sentiment, and let patriotic blood spill in the name of elected offices. Neither political party is immune to this.
BW hires and holds its operators to the highest standards. They are all former special operators who are exceptionally well trained and know how and when to apply force. They are not prone to mistakes, either tactical or emotion, during battle. They are professionals and they are the best. I hope the inevitable witch hunt reveals these brave patriots acted prudently, professionally, and responsibly. In the event they acted with malice, the individuals should be prosecuted, as with the military, but BW should only minimally be held to account for the actions of rogues.
Look, I have an opinion, not an agenda. And I truly respect all those intelligent and well thought out opinions, even if they differ from mine. We just disagree. I only offer this blog to those who are interested in an insightful yet different perspective.
Just my opinion for what it is worth.
May God bless those who protect us.

By: Entropy

Entropy — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 20:29:12 +0000

in their armed-to-the-teeth black helicopters.

Yes, Alex, I’ll take “fact check” for $1000 please.

By: domajot

domajot — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:47:13 +0000

That whole situation with mercenaries and armed contractors is problematic, because responsbility issues become so diffuse and opaque.
While one can’t take the Iraqi version of incidents at face value. there is no clear chain of command to take charge from the US side, either.

By: The Detroit Times » Blackwater Security Banned from Iraq

The Detroit Times » Blackwater Security Banned from Iraq — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:15:20 +0000

[...] All Spin Zone, Swords Crossed, Shakespeare’s Sister, The RBC, My Left Wing and Blogs of War, The Moderate Voice, Washington Monthly and Kiko’s House Technorati Tags: Iraq, War, Blackwater Security, [...]