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	<title>Comments on: In Europe, A Tougher Attitude Towards Anyone Who&#8217;s Different</title>
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		<title>By: Lynx</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15043/a-tougher-attitude-towards-foreigners/comment-page-1/#comment-97963</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/muslims/15043/a-tougher-attitude-towards-foreigners/#comment-97963</guid>
		<description>Mr. Moderate, the thing about ethnicity is that Europeans are all white, though there are of course some physical differences amongst the people. Still, someone who is half French and half Spanish by ancestry but who&#039;s parents were both born in Italy and who was born in Italy themselves will almost certainly consider themselves Italian and little else. There is a lot to be said about not standing out physically or sounding different. It&#039;s not necessarily racism, it&#039;s just that people will be less likely to think you a native if you look or sound very different. That same theoretical person would probably have a harder time identifying in Germany, since the Mediterranean look is different from the Germanic look.

Your friend probably hardly ever had to have anyone know his ancestry unless he volunteered the information. In addition, I&#039;d bet that being relatively isolated helps, in the sense that if you are one of maybe one thousands Greeks settling in France, your children are likely to relate to other French children and become assimilated, whereas if you are part of a group of 300,000 Greeks settling in the space of 5 years, the children will likely grow in closed enclaves, and the shock of so many will create more rejection from the populace.

I firmly believe that one of the strengths of the US is the ability to make everyone self-identify FIRST as American and THEN as anything else. I don&#039;t see anything wrong with remembering your roots, as long as your first loyalty is to the US (or wherever the case may be).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Moderate, the thing about ethnicity is that Europeans are all white, though there are of course some physical differences amongst the people. Still, someone who is half French and half Spanish by ancestry but who&#8217;s parents were both born in Italy and who was born in Italy themselves will almost certainly consider themselves Italian and little else. There is a lot to be said about not standing out physically or sounding different. It&#8217;s not necessarily racism, it&#8217;s just that people will be less likely to think you a native if you look or sound very different. That same theoretical person would probably have a harder time identifying in Germany, since the Mediterranean look is different from the Germanic look.</p>
<p>Your friend probably hardly ever had to have anyone know his ancestry unless he volunteered the information. In addition, I&#8217;d bet that being relatively isolated helps, in the sense that if you are one of maybe one thousands Greeks settling in France, your children are likely to relate to other French children and become assimilated, whereas if you are part of a group of 300,000 Greeks settling in the space of 5 years, the children will likely grow in closed enclaves, and the shock of so many will create more rejection from the populace.</p>
<p>I firmly believe that one of the strengths of the US is the ability to make everyone self-identify FIRST as American and THEN as anything else. I don&#8217;t see anything wrong with remembering your roots, as long as your first loyalty is to the US (or wherever the case may be).</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15043/a-tougher-attitude-towards-foreigners/comment-page-1/#comment-97960</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/muslims/15043/a-tougher-attitude-towards-foreigners/#comment-97960</guid>
		<description>Mr. MODERATE advocates punishing a whole fality for what one member has done?  Consider a name change, maybe to Mr.Extreme Punishemtn.

After admitting that there is a problem, the worst possible reaction is to swing the pendulum too far in the other direction.  

I think these trends smell of xenophobia.  There needs to be a way to like your own country (or your own kind of people) without needing to hate all else
This is not the way..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. MODERATE advocates punishing a whole fality for what one member has done?  Consider a name change, maybe to Mr.Extreme Punishemtn.</p>
<p>After admitting that there is a problem, the worst possible reaction is to swing the pendulum too far in the other direction.  </p>
<p>I think these trends smell of xenophobia.  There needs to be a way to like your own country (or your own kind of people) without needing to hate all else<br />
This is not the way..</p>
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		<title>By: Mr.Moderate</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15043/a-tougher-attitude-towards-foreigners/comment-page-1/#comment-97959</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr.Moderate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/muslims/15043/a-tougher-attitude-towards-foreigners/#comment-97959</guid>
		<description>lynx,

Interesting points.  I was actually thinking the reverse on #3 though.  We assert a national identity but not an ethnic one.  Further, it is an identity that everyone shares but doesn&#039;t wholly adopt.  We see that with everything from cuisine to music to social norms.  A concrete example of this difference in assimilation effect was something that happened to me years ago, in college.

There was a French exchange student that was in my class.  He looked to me to have a lot of Greek ancestry.  I asked him what his family&#039;s ethnic background was.  He answer, &quot;We are French.&quot;  To clarify my position, I told him, &quot;I&#039;m an American, but my families come from Italy and Poland, so my ethnic background is Italian and Polish.&quot;  He understood and answered that his family came to France a couple hundred years ago from Greece.  He also commented how uniquely American the question was.  In his mind I am American, not an American with certain ancestry, just as he is French.  

Do the culture in Europe allow such a retention of identity while still claiming ownership of the new one?  More importantly, I wondered if they have the opportunity to pick up the new one altogether within a generation&#039;s time.  Anyone born here or naturalized (in my personal experience) calls themselves American.  So within one generation they identify both with being American and their ethnic tradition.  Would the son or daughter of Turkish family be German, or would an Iranian adult who became a French citizen be considered French?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lynx,</p>
<p>Interesting points.  I was actually thinking the reverse on #3 though.  We assert a national identity but not an ethnic one.  Further, it is an identity that everyone shares but doesn&#8217;t wholly adopt.  We see that with everything from cuisine to music to social norms.  A concrete example of this difference in assimilation effect was something that happened to me years ago, in college.</p>
<p>There was a French exchange student that was in my class.  He looked to me to have a lot of Greek ancestry.  I asked him what his family&#8217;s ethnic background was.  He answer, &#8220;We are French.&#8221;  To clarify my position, I told him, &#8220;I&#8217;m an American, but my families come from Italy and Poland, so my ethnic background is Italian and Polish.&#8221;  He understood and answered that his family came to France a couple hundred years ago from Greece.  He also commented how uniquely American the question was.  In his mind I am American, not an American with certain ancestry, just as he is French.  </p>
<p>Do the culture in Europe allow such a retention of identity while still claiming ownership of the new one?  More importantly, I wondered if they have the opportunity to pick up the new one altogether within a generation&#8217;s time.  Anyone born here or naturalized (in my personal experience) calls themselves American.  So within one generation they identify both with being American and their ethnic tradition.  Would the son or daughter of Turkish family be German, or would an Iranian adult who became a French citizen be considered French?</p>
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		<title>By: Lynx</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15043/a-tougher-attitude-towards-foreigners/comment-page-1/#comment-97957</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/muslims/15043/a-tougher-attitude-towards-foreigners/#comment-97957</guid>
		<description>Mr. Moderate, your my &quot;admittedly American point of view&quot; is correct in this instance. Europe has been having a much harder time assimilating immigrants than the US has traditionally. There are many reasons for this, amongst them:

1. Lack of habit and difference in time. The US has been doing this for a long time, and when the most massive waves of immigrants arrived, they did so into a country in rapid expansion, unlike Europe.

2. Lack of a wide welfare safety net. In the US you either sink or swim, in Europe we have floaties for those unable (and unfortunately also for those unwilling) to swim on their own. This softness encourages a sense of entitlement and discourages the integration necessary to get ahead.

3. Fear of asserting self-identity. Patriotism is a dirty word in most European countries, thanks to our recent history with Fascism. This makes us timid when it comes to asking for certain cultural adaptation, we don&#039;t want to be seen as &quot;forcing&quot; anything. This also leaves immigrants with no clear guidelines on behavior. Since anything goes, anything does.

Number three especially is problematic. Lots of Europeans don&#039;t like the patriotic attitude, but they like the immigrant attitude a lot less. This leaves many frustrated, unable (because of taboo) to assert their own culture openly, but resentful of those who come and don&#039;t adapt to the culture. Most of us resort to muttering amongst our friends, the less morally inclined lash out at anybody they can (usually someone weak, not someone guilty). 

As for the rules, well who cares? Deportation is this carrot most politicians wave in front of voters as if they intended to &quot;get tough&quot;. Most of these things never materialize. Deportation is virtually impossible, since the home countries of the deportees don&#039;t recognize them as citizens and don&#039;t accept the deportation. Spain tried to send a plane to some South American country with deportees once, they didn&#039;t even let the plane land. If deportation were possible, that would be nice. Certainly in the case of criminals (once they served their time), but also in the case of those who break the law by being in the country. Switzerland is a tiny country, it&#039;s no wonder they are one of the first to show strain in the face of the immigration crisis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Moderate, your my &#8220;admittedly American point of view&#8221; is correct in this instance. Europe has been having a much harder time assimilating immigrants than the US has traditionally. There are many reasons for this, amongst them:</p>
<p>1. Lack of habit and difference in time. The US has been doing this for a long time, and when the most massive waves of immigrants arrived, they did so into a country in rapid expansion, unlike Europe.</p>
<p>2. Lack of a wide welfare safety net. In the US you either sink or swim, in Europe we have floaties for those unable (and unfortunately also for those unwilling) to swim on their own. This softness encourages a sense of entitlement and discourages the integration necessary to get ahead.</p>
<p>3. Fear of asserting self-identity. Patriotism is a dirty word in most European countries, thanks to our recent history with Fascism. This makes us timid when it comes to asking for certain cultural adaptation, we don&#8217;t want to be seen as &#8220;forcing&#8221; anything. This also leaves immigrants with no clear guidelines on behavior. Since anything goes, anything does.</p>
<p>Number three especially is problematic. Lots of Europeans don&#8217;t like the patriotic attitude, but they like the immigrant attitude a lot less. This leaves many frustrated, unable (because of taboo) to assert their own culture openly, but resentful of those who come and don&#8217;t adapt to the culture. Most of us resort to muttering amongst our friends, the less morally inclined lash out at anybody they can (usually someone weak, not someone guilty). </p>
<p>As for the rules, well who cares? Deportation is this carrot most politicians wave in front of voters as if they intended to &#8220;get tough&#8221;. Most of these things never materialize. Deportation is virtually impossible, since the home countries of the deportees don&#8217;t recognize them as citizens and don&#8217;t accept the deportation. Spain tried to send a plane to some South American country with deportees once, they didn&#8217;t even let the plane land. If deportation were possible, that would be nice. Certainly in the case of criminals (once they served their time), but also in the case of those who break the law by being in the country. Switzerland is a tiny country, it&#8217;s no wonder they are one of the first to show strain in the face of the immigration crisis.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15043/a-tougher-attitude-towards-foreigners/comment-page-1/#comment-97950</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/muslims/15043/a-tougher-attitude-towards-foreigners/#comment-97950</guid>
		<description>How much do you know about Swiss poitics or social conditions within Switzerland, Jeb?  Are the articles you&#039;re reading written by Switzers or by people critical of Switzers?

I don&#039;t know a great deal about present day Swiss politics or social conditions and, consequently, I&#039;m hesitant to volunteer advice on what they should or shouldn&#039;t do.  I do think that the Swiss should have the right to limit visitors to their country according to the conditions specific to Switzerland.  Don&#039;t you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How much do you know about Swiss poitics or social conditions within Switzerland, Jeb?  Are the articles you&#8217;re reading written by Switzers or by people critical of Switzers?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know a great deal about present day Swiss politics or social conditions and, consequently, I&#8217;m hesitant to volunteer advice on what they should or shouldn&#8217;t do.  I do think that the Swiss should have the right to limit visitors to their country according to the conditions specific to Switzerland.  Don&#8217;t you?</p>
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		<title>By: Mr.Moderate</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/15043/a-tougher-attitude-towards-foreigners/comment-page-1/#comment-97946</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr.Moderate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/islam/muslims/15043/a-tougher-attitude-towards-foreigners/#comment-97946</guid>
		<description>A lot of worrying signs there, but that low you object to I think makes perfect sense.  I advocate something similar with people that live in public housing in the U.S.  If your child is convicted of a major crime then you lose the your government paid for housing.  If your family can&#039;t integrate into the society non-violently, why should they be allowed there at all?  I suppose the problem may be different in the U.S. than in Europe though since we tend to have a better history of assimilation (both ways) than Europe does (from my admittedly American point of view).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of worrying signs there, but that low you object to I think makes perfect sense.  I advocate something similar with people that live in public housing in the U.S.  If your child is convicted of a major crime then you lose the your government paid for housing.  If your family can&#8217;t integrate into the society non-violently, why should they be allowed there at all?  I suppose the problem may be different in the U.S. than in Europe though since we tend to have a better history of assimilation (both ways) than Europe does (from my admittedly American point of view).</p>
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