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	<title>Comments on: Senator Larry Craigâ€™s â€œIntent to Resign:â€ When An  Apology Isnâ€™t An Apology</title>
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	<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/</link>
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		<title>By: zornwil</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/comment-page-1/#comment-98362</link>
		<dc:creator>zornwil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/#comment-98362</guid>
		<description>I think somehow my point is being conflated with support for him or saying he should stay in office or that he should expect the same privacy as a private figure.   I said that an expectation of people that he must reveal the reasons for his actions is unreasonable.  He doesn&#039;t &quot;have&quot; to.  However, he should expect not to get reelected.  And he should expect to be called a hypocrite.  But my point is that it&#039;s one thing to reveal his actions - wihch I agree with.  It&#039;s another to reveal his MIND.  THAT is his business, and while politicians&#039; actions ARE understandably and rightfully scrutinized so that they have less privacy, I think we should draw the lines at expecting what&#039;s inside.  

On the other hand, which I didn&#039;t personally get out of the article but the Dr. mentions above in a subsequen tpost, I can well see the argument as quite valid that gays and his constituents specifically and by extension the general public are owed such for his hypocrisy, and that was exactly my argument that that&#039;s not the same as apologizing for cruising - it&#039;s apologizng for being a hypocrite.  Valid argument.   So I agree with the Dr. up above re that count, at least in some portion, I have mixed feelings on what details one can or should &quot;expect&quot; morally (as opposed to politically).

Although I would posit something that I feel should be considered - he may not be a hypocrite whatsoever.  He may well feel that the laws he espouses SHOULD be applied to him, that his bisexual or homosexual or whatever tendencies he knows are &quot;wrong&quot; and he wants these laws because he wants himself and all like him to be &quot;stopped.&quot;  I think there&#039;s more people living that life, either for self-hating or even (certainly rarely) non-self-hating reasons, than we probably realize.   In general, lots of people support laws because they know without them they&#039;d break them themselves or they simply do already and hope that the laws dissuade others - addicts, speeders (as in fast drivers), etc.  I don&#039;t feel that way in most scenarios, being generally more libertarian.  But it isn&#039;t inherently hypocritical of a person who speeds to believe that there should be speeding limits, or, rather, to the extent it is I&#039;m not sure I&#039;d feel comfortable in judging them that way, to put it a bit differently (and this is not from my experience - I don&#039;t even drive despite being middle-aged!).

Anyway, the whole thing strikes me as amazingly naive (best case) or desperate and stupid panic (more likely IMHO) on his part, whereas although Dr. Estes points out maybe he has gotten away with this before (good thought!), the thing was on public record, however buried.  The part that gets me here, to be specific, is that he knows that legal counsel is more likely, even, to honor their commitments of confidentiality, he knows how to get a hold of a lawyer, obviously, and at the least you&#039;d think he&#039;d have contacted one to see if he could get the records sealed or whatever else, SOME sort of defense.  

You know what they say - sometimes criminals want to be caught, and sometimes people want to be outted.  Maybe part of him wanted the exposure, perhaps in his case for the punishment as opposed to really coming out.  Not all such folk are like Robert Bauman and accept their lives once outted. 

Ah well now I&#039;m on a tangent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think somehow my point is being conflated with support for him or saying he should stay in office or that he should expect the same privacy as a private figure.   I said that an expectation of people that he must reveal the reasons for his actions is unreasonable.  He doesn&#8217;t &#8220;have&#8221; to.  However, he should expect not to get reelected.  And he should expect to be called a hypocrite.  But my point is that it&#8217;s one thing to reveal his actions &#8211; wihch I agree with.  It&#8217;s another to reveal his MIND.  THAT is his business, and while politicians&#8217; actions ARE understandably and rightfully scrutinized so that they have less privacy, I think we should draw the lines at expecting what&#8217;s inside.  </p>
<p>On the other hand, which I didn&#8217;t personally get out of the article but the Dr. mentions above in a subsequen tpost, I can well see the argument as quite valid that gays and his constituents specifically and by extension the general public are owed such for his hypocrisy, and that was exactly my argument that that&#8217;s not the same as apologizing for cruising &#8211; it&#8217;s apologizng for being a hypocrite.  Valid argument.   So I agree with the Dr. up above re that count, at least in some portion, I have mixed feelings on what details one can or should &#8220;expect&#8221; morally (as opposed to politically).</p>
<p>Although I would posit something that I feel should be considered &#8211; he may not be a hypocrite whatsoever.  He may well feel that the laws he espouses SHOULD be applied to him, that his bisexual or homosexual or whatever tendencies he knows are &#8220;wrong&#8221; and he wants these laws because he wants himself and all like him to be &#8220;stopped.&#8221;  I think there&#8217;s more people living that life, either for self-hating or even (certainly rarely) non-self-hating reasons, than we probably realize.   In general, lots of people support laws because they know without them they&#8217;d break them themselves or they simply do already and hope that the laws dissuade others &#8211; addicts, speeders (as in fast drivers), etc.  I don&#8217;t feel that way in most scenarios, being generally more libertarian.  But it isn&#8217;t inherently hypocritical of a person who speeds to believe that there should be speeding limits, or, rather, to the extent it is I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;d feel comfortable in judging them that way, to put it a bit differently (and this is not from my experience &#8211; I don&#8217;t even drive despite being middle-aged!).</p>
<p>Anyway, the whole thing strikes me as amazingly naive (best case) or desperate and stupid panic (more likely IMHO) on his part, whereas although Dr. Estes points out maybe he has gotten away with this before (good thought!), the thing was on public record, however buried.  The part that gets me here, to be specific, is that he knows that legal counsel is more likely, even, to honor their commitments of confidentiality, he knows how to get a hold of a lawyer, obviously, and at the least you&#8217;d think he&#8217;d have contacted one to see if he could get the records sealed or whatever else, SOME sort of defense.  </p>
<p>You know what they say &#8211; sometimes criminals want to be caught, and sometimes people want to be outted.  Maybe part of him wanted the exposure, perhaps in his case for the punishment as opposed to really coming out.  Not all such folk are like Robert Bauman and accept their lives once outted. </p>
<p>Ah well now I&#8217;m on a tangent.</p>
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		<title>By: Jilly Dybka</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/comment-page-1/#comment-97201</link>
		<dc:creator>Jilly Dybka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 18:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/#comment-97201</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the kind words -- your Bedtime Stories CD is helping me get through surgical menopause so thank  you thank you.

There is an interesting op-ed piece in the NYT, which mentions &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/opinion/02macdonald.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the breastplate of righteousness&lt;/a&gt;&quot; that some closeted gay men use to protect themselves.

I also couldn&#039;t care less about the sexual proclivities of my government officials, other than it is between consenting adults.

But Craig acquired/kept his power by actively working to inhibit the rights of some Americans because of their sexual practices, all the while evidently partaking of them, himself. So, blah.

Also curious is all the criticism that John Edwards gets from the Right for his $$ foofey haircut &amp; alleged mincing ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the kind words &#8212; your Bedtime Stories CD is helping me get through surgical menopause so thank  you thank you.</p>
<p>There is an interesting op-ed piece in the NYT, which mentions &#8220;<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/opinion/02macdonald.html" rel="nofollow">the breastplate of righteousness</a>&#8221; that some closeted gay men use to protect themselves.</p>
<p>I also couldn&#8217;t care less about the sexual proclivities of my government officials, other than it is between consenting adults.</p>
<p>But Craig acquired/kept his power by actively working to inhibit the rights of some Americans because of their sexual practices, all the while evidently partaking of them, himself. So, blah.</p>
<p>Also curious is all the criticism that John Edwards gets from the Right for his $$ foofey haircut &#038; alleged mincing ways.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Clarissa Pinkola EstÃ©s</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/comment-page-1/#comment-97193</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Clarissa Pinkola EstÃ©s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 17:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/#comment-97193</guid>
		<description>kritter, your fact-filled post shows that news often has more than one major chakra, if I could put it that way: whirling energy/ storm. I think you join many in seeing Craig as being in the likely 99.99 percentile of public figuredom. Your emphasis about his being on taxpayer time is the swilling point for many. (swilling... not drinking excessively, the other meaning... pouring much much water in order to make something come clearer)

Re Statesman: Itâ€™s antiquated Tammany Hall politics, that idea of caroming blame onto another in order to gain time to â€˜fixâ€™ oneâ€™s own positionâ€”and to garner support from those who dislike the caromee. 

I wondered what others thought of this? 
I did listen to the audio of the Sergeant interviewing the Senator, and asked one of my PI colleagues to listen too. We both noted the interrogating officer said he wasnâ€™t the kind to turn such matters over to the media. 

That the audio was released instead of sealed, may indicate that despite Senatorâ€™s status, he didnâ€™t have a legal friend in their world to call upon... or else inflated beyond the beyond, thought this incident so trivial it didnâ€™t matter... or else, has been in this situ with the law before and has managed to â€˜buy it/ seal it away,â€™ and it had not yet come back to the surface....?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kritter, your fact-filled post shows that news often has more than one major chakra, if I could put it that way: whirling energy/ storm. I think you join many in seeing Craig as being in the likely 99.99 percentile of public figuredom. Your emphasis about his being on taxpayer time is the swilling point for many. (swilling&#8230; not drinking excessively, the other meaning&#8230; pouring much much water in order to make something come clearer)</p>
<p>Re Statesman: Itâ€™s antiquated Tammany Hall politics, that idea of caroming blame onto another in order to gain time to â€˜fixâ€™ oneâ€™s own positionâ€”and to garner support from those who dislike the caromee. </p>
<p>I wondered what others thought of this?<br />
I did listen to the audio of the Sergeant interviewing the Senator, and asked one of my PI colleagues to listen too. We both noted the interrogating officer said he wasnâ€™t the kind to turn such matters over to the media. </p>
<p>That the audio was released instead of sealed, may indicate that despite Senatorâ€™s status, he didnâ€™t have a legal friend in their world to call upon&#8230; or else inflated beyond the beyond, thought this incident so trivial it didnâ€™t matter&#8230; or else, has been in this situ with the law before and has managed to â€˜buy it/ seal it away,â€™ and it had not yet come back to the surface&#8230;.?</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Clarissa Pinkola EstÃ©s</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/comment-page-1/#comment-97191</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Clarissa Pinkola EstÃ©s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/#comment-97191</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s Labor Day... I hope wherever you are, you are cool and able to relax a bit. Thank you for your comments on such a long holiday. Here in the high country desert the white pelicans are getting ready to fly South.

Cosmoetica: You asked if anything other than, would be expected. Not sure I&#039;d &#039;expect,&#039; but I hold out for the possibility that a politico will shed the self-flattening armor. Perhaps in this case, the subject was born without affect. But probably not; it appears invented. 

Jilly, my word, Caw! indeed. Says it all.

zornwill: I agree with you that apology to wife/inner circleâ€™s not public. To me, it&#039;s not whether Senator is gay, bisexual or other. But, it&#039;s related to this: He&#039;s voted vociferously against gays enjoining the same rights he enjoys. Reflecting on that division/ harm, is missing. Instead, he offers &quot;dog ate my homework,&quot; equivalency. I&#039;m sympathetic to Craigâ€™s angst to protect. But, the way out, is not the way back in.
dr.e.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s Labor Day&#8230; I hope wherever you are, you are cool and able to relax a bit. Thank you for your comments on such a long holiday. Here in the high country desert the white pelicans are getting ready to fly South.</p>
<p>Cosmoetica: You asked if anything other than, would be expected. Not sure I&#8217;d &#8216;expect,&#8217; but I hold out for the possibility that a politico will shed the self-flattening armor. Perhaps in this case, the subject was born without affect. But probably not; it appears invented. </p>
<p>Jilly, my word, Caw! indeed. Says it all.</p>
<p>zornwill: I agree with you that apology to wife/inner circleâ€™s not public. To me, it&#8217;s not whether Senator is gay, bisexual or other. But, it&#8217;s related to this: He&#8217;s voted vociferously against gays enjoining the same rights he enjoys. Reflecting on that division/ harm, is missing. Instead, he offers &#8220;dog ate my homework,&#8221; equivalency. I&#8217;m sympathetic to Craigâ€™s angst to protect. But, the way out, is not the way back in.<br />
dr.e.</p>
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		<title>By: kritter</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/comment-page-1/#comment-97188</link>
		<dc:creator>kritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 15:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/#comment-97188</guid>
		<description>Gotta disagree with Zornwil. As a public figure, and one whose salary is paid by Idahoan taxpayers, he should not expect the same respect for his privacy that an ordinary citizen would get. It was Craig&#039;s decision to plead guilty under the hopes that the whole thing would just go away without any media attention. For his poor choices, he has only himself to blame.

Also, whether briefly or not, he did attempt to use his position as a US Senator to get out of the arrest .US taxpayers have a right to expect more out of our public servants than someone who prowls for anonymous gay sex in a public restroom, lies to the officer about his conduct, attempts to use his position to avoid charges, covers up the incident by quietly pleading guilty and saying nothing to Idahoans about it, and then blatantly lies about it when the story airs.  Even worse was his attempt to deflect blame to the Statesman. I guess blaming the liberal, biased MSM has now become a standard tactic for Republicans caught up in various scandals.

The airport sting caught 41 people, and I&#039;m sure none of them had the resources available to Craig. For once, justice was equal under the law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gotta disagree with Zornwil. As a public figure, and one whose salary is paid by Idahoan taxpayers, he should not expect the same respect for his privacy that an ordinary citizen would get. It was Craig&#8217;s decision to plead guilty under the hopes that the whole thing would just go away without any media attention. For his poor choices, he has only himself to blame.</p>
<p>Also, whether briefly or not, he did attempt to use his position as a US Senator to get out of the arrest .US taxpayers have a right to expect more out of our public servants than someone who prowls for anonymous gay sex in a public restroom, lies to the officer about his conduct, attempts to use his position to avoid charges, covers up the incident by quietly pleading guilty and saying nothing to Idahoans about it, and then blatantly lies about it when the story airs.  Even worse was his attempt to deflect blame to the Statesman. I guess blaming the liberal, biased MSM has now become a standard tactic for Republicans caught up in various scandals.</p>
<p>The airport sting caught 41 people, and I&#8217;m sure none of them had the resources available to Craig. For once, justice was equal under the law.</p>
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		<title>By: zornwil</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/comment-page-1/#comment-97156</link>
		<dc:creator>zornwil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 03:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/#comment-97156</guid>
		<description>I take great exception to this.  The apology that is referred to in this article is of the personal variety, the one the Senator owes to his wife and possibly his children.  He owes nothing more to the public than the political side of this, which he has delivered on.  His sexuality and whether he intentionally was cruising for sex is not the public&#039;s business.  From my standpoint, his guilt here is also not something the Senate itself would have had any business finding against him for in an ethics investigation either, as, aside from a brief fleeting apparent attempt to use his position to influence the police officer, he wasn&#039;t using his position as Senator in general.  He did something wrong, he was caught, he plead guilty.  Publicly he wishes to state he plead guilty to &quot;make it go away,&quot; &quot;not because I was really guilty,&quot; and so on.  Well, it&#039;s fine to judge him in an election on that.  It&#039;s fine to form your opinion of him from that.  But he owes nothing to you or I, Joe Q. Public.  We can vote against him of course if he wishes to submit himself for such exercise (I would anyway given I don&#039;t support his brand of social conservative ideology).  And politically he would be stupid and counter-productive to hang in there.  Finally, surely, it&#039;s appropriate for him to apologize to Idahoans for being ineffective, therefore, as a Senator and indeed having &quot;caused&quot; all this, but that&#039;s the extent of the apology they are owed, an apology that he got caught, in essence.  Whether he cruises for gay sex is his business, especially now that he is leaving public service.  Asking more is tantamount to invading his privacy.  And while I grant that self-serving apologies are poor ones, this is not self-serving, there is nothing for him to be gained by this, unlike Vicks&#039; apology which is crafted to allow him to participate in the NFL again.  Craig gains/preserves nothing here, except for a level of detail about his personal life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take great exception to this.  The apology that is referred to in this article is of the personal variety, the one the Senator owes to his wife and possibly his children.  He owes nothing more to the public than the political side of this, which he has delivered on.  His sexuality and whether he intentionally was cruising for sex is not the public&#8217;s business.  From my standpoint, his guilt here is also not something the Senate itself would have had any business finding against him for in an ethics investigation either, as, aside from a brief fleeting apparent attempt to use his position to influence the police officer, he wasn&#8217;t using his position as Senator in general.  He did something wrong, he was caught, he plead guilty.  Publicly he wishes to state he plead guilty to &#8220;make it go away,&#8221; &#8220;not because I was really guilty,&#8221; and so on.  Well, it&#8217;s fine to judge him in an election on that.  It&#8217;s fine to form your opinion of him from that.  But he owes nothing to you or I, Joe Q. Public.  We can vote against him of course if he wishes to submit himself for such exercise (I would anyway given I don&#8217;t support his brand of social conservative ideology).  And politically he would be stupid and counter-productive to hang in there.  Finally, surely, it&#8217;s appropriate for him to apologize to Idahoans for being ineffective, therefore, as a Senator and indeed having &#8220;caused&#8221; all this, but that&#8217;s the extent of the apology they are owed, an apology that he got caught, in essence.  Whether he cruises for gay sex is his business, especially now that he is leaving public service.  Asking more is tantamount to invading his privacy.  And while I grant that self-serving apologies are poor ones, this is not self-serving, there is nothing for him to be gained by this, unlike Vicks&#8217; apology which is crafted to allow him to participate in the NFL again.  Craig gains/preserves nothing here, except for a level of detail about his personal life.</p>
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		<title>By: Once upon a time &#124; Poetry Hut Blog: Poetry News</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/comment-page-1/#comment-97151</link>
		<dc:creator>Once upon a time &#124; Poetry Hut Blog: Poetry News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 01:02:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] my sister, Intissar, and for Dr. Clarissa Pinkola EstÃ©sOnce upon a timewhen crows flocked to the illuminated clouds of dreams, gold jingledwith midnight [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my sister, Intissar, and for Dr. Clarissa Pinkola EstÃ©sOnce upon a timewhen crows flocked to the illuminated clouds of dreams, gold jingledwith midnight [...]</p>
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		<title>By: cosmoetica</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/comment-page-1/#comment-97150</link>
		<dc:creator>cosmoetica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 01:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/14885/senator-larry-craig%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9cintent-to-resign%e2%80%9d-when-an-apology-isn%e2%80%99t-an-apology/#comment-97150</guid>
		<description>Did you really expect anything else, or better?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you really expect anything else, or better?</p>
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