Comments on: The Koran and Infidels. Make that Non-Muslims. http://themoderatevoice.com/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/ An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:34:04 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Advocating a Religious War « The Van Der Galiën Gazette http://themoderatevoice.com/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/comment-page-1/#comment-97168 Advocating a Religious War « The Van Der Galiën Gazette Sun, 02 Sep 2007 12:13:32 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/#comment-97168 [...] 2nd, 2007 by Michael van der Galiën Gateway Pundit criticizes me for writing that we need more Muslims like Mustafa Akyol. His problem? Mr. Akyol wrote negative things about [...] [...] 2nd, 2007 by Michael van der Galiën Gateway Pundit criticizes me for writing that we need more Muslims like Mustafa Akyol. His problem? Mr. Akyol wrote negative things about [...]

]]> By: Michael van der Galien http://themoderatevoice.com/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/comment-page-1/#comment-97135 Michael van der Galien Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:54:45 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/#comment-97135 Tano: you have never decided not to watch something because of what you read and heard about it? For instance, if you read 5 reviews of a book, all negative, are you still likely to read that book or do you think "wellll it sounds like I can spend my time in a more useful manner." Tano: you have never decided not to watch something because of what you read and heard about it? For instance, if you read 5 reviews of a book, all negative, are you still likely to read that book or do you think “wellll it sounds like I can spend my time in a more useful manner.”

]]> By: Tano http://themoderatevoice.com/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/comment-page-1/#comment-97133 Tano Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:16:26 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/#comment-97133 " I decided that I do not want to watch it either. It seems to be yet another case of political correctness at work. " This is just so incredibly lame, Michael. How can you expect us to take you seriously when you think so unseriously yourself? Attach a catch-phrase insult to something you havent even seen, based on what others say, and thereby conclude that you arent going to watch it? While passing along the insult? Pfffuh. ” I decided that I do not want to watch it either. It seems to be yet another case of political correctness at work. ”

This is just so incredibly lame, Michael.

How can you expect us to take you seriously when you think so unseriously yourself?

Attach a catch-phrase insult to something you havent even seen, based on what others say, and thereby conclude that you arent going to watch it? While passing along the insult?

Pfffuh.

]]> By: Sam http://themoderatevoice.com/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/comment-page-1/#comment-97130 Sam Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:00:19 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/#comment-97130 Well I think you guys are laboring under the impression that these books make sense period. Religous texts tend to be schizophrenic in nature on purpose for the very reason mentioned above. If you want to rouse the people to anger you have passages to do that, if you want people to be calm and work together you have passages for that. Its what makes them such good tools for manipulation. This talk of taking things in context may apply here and there, but largely when it comes to passages about kiling, at least in the bible, they are pretty straightforward. I haven't read the Koran, but I would be very surprised to find it written any differently, especially with what I have seen from muslims. Ultimately, they are tools for manipulation used by unscrupulous men when they need to find others to give up their lives. The rest of the time it keeps people docile. Well I think you guys are laboring under the impression that these books make sense period. Religous texts tend to be schizophrenic in nature on purpose for the very reason mentioned above. If you want to rouse the people to anger you have passages to do that, if you want people to be calm and work together you have passages for that. Its what makes them such good tools for manipulation.

This talk of taking things in context may apply here and there, but largely when it comes to passages about kiling, at least in the bible, they are pretty straightforward. I haven’t read the Koran, but I would be very surprised to find it written any differently, especially with what I have seen from muslims.

Ultimately, they are tools for manipulation used by unscrupulous men when they need to find others to give up their lives. The rest of the time it keeps people docile.

]]> By: Michael van der Galien http://themoderatevoice.com/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/comment-page-1/#comment-97111 Michael van der Galien Sat, 01 Sep 2007 17:07:49 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/#comment-97111 Lynx: I have a Koran and am reading it. I have to say that I agree with Akyol's interpretation. I begin to understand why moderate Muslims say that Islamists are not 'real Muslims' or taking things out of context. Lynx: I have a Koran and am reading it. I have to say that I agree with Akyol’s interpretation.

I begin to understand why moderate Muslims say that Islamists are not ‘real Muslims’ or taking things out of context.

]]> By: Lynx http://themoderatevoice.com/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/comment-page-1/#comment-97110 Lynx Sat, 01 Sep 2007 17:04:22 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/#comment-97110 Interesting take on the subject. What Akyol appears to do is what Christians do all the time; say that what counts is the general intention of the holy book, not specific brutal quotes. It's a bit hypocritical to give "it's the intentions that count" treatment to the Torah or the Bible but deny it to the Koran. However I am of the belief that a religion is NOT only defined by it's holy book, but by the way the religion is practiced. Quite frankly the chasm that exists between the practices of early Christians, the Catholics of the XII century and say the Anglicans of today is enormous, in many ways much greater than the ones that exist between different religions of today. Theoretically they all follow the same book, but the reality is that the religion is defined by how the people choose to interpret the book. Today Christians (normal ones, anyway) carefully ignore the multiple places in the Bible where women are devalued and said to be inferior, but not so long ago those passages were considered an important part of the <em>intention</em> of God, reminding people that everyone has their place, and woman’s is below mans. Likewise with Islam. I agree with Akyol that Muslim extremists already hate and find justification of their hatred in the Koran, but I dispute that this means they aren't "true Muslims". Mind you, maybe they aren't, it's quite possible that the global identity of Islam today (assuming there is one, which I don't know) chooses an interpretation of the Koran that carefully ignores the nasty bits, in which case these extremists aren't any more in line with Islam than Christians who though men and women should be equal would be in line with Christianity 300 years ago. I truly do hope that the identity of Islam really is mostly peace-loving and that this progress towards moderation continues, as has already happened for Christianity and for (non-orthodox) Judaism. As people change, the passages in their holy books that they consider "the <em>really</em> important thing" changes. I fully expect that one day the disapproval of homosexuality that still forms a part of the Christian credo will go the way of female inferiority, and be quietly ignored, as if it were never part of "true" Christianity. Interesting take on the subject. What Akyol appears to do is what Christians do all the time; say that what counts is the general intention of the holy book, not specific brutal quotes. It’s a bit hypocritical to give “it’s the intentions that count” treatment to the Torah or the Bible but deny it to the Koran.

However I am of the belief that a religion is NOT only defined by it’s holy book, but by the way the religion is practiced. Quite frankly the chasm that exists between the practices of early Christians, the Catholics of the XII century and say the Anglicans of today is enormous, in many ways much greater than the ones that exist between different religions of today. Theoretically they all follow the same book, but the reality is that the religion is defined by how the people choose to interpret the book. Today Christians (normal ones, anyway) carefully ignore the multiple places in the Bible where women are devalued and said to be inferior, but not so long ago those passages were considered an important part of the intention of God, reminding people that everyone has their place, and woman’s is below mans.

Likewise with Islam. I agree with Akyol that Muslim extremists already hate and find justification of their hatred in the Koran, but I dispute that this means they aren’t “true Muslims”. Mind you, maybe they aren’t, it’s quite possible that the global identity of Islam today (assuming there is one, which I don’t know) chooses an interpretation of the Koran that carefully ignores the nasty bits, in which case these extremists aren’t any more in line with Islam than Christians who though men and women should be equal would be in line with Christianity 300 years ago.

I truly do hope that the identity of Islam really is mostly peace-loving and that this progress towards moderation continues, as has already happened for Christianity and for (non-orthodox) Judaism. As people change, the passages in their holy books that they consider “the really important thing” changes. I fully expect that one day the disapproval of homosexuality that still forms a part of the Christian credo will go the way of female inferiority, and be quietly ignored, as if it were never part of “true” Christianity.

]]> By: Michael van der Galien http://themoderatevoice.com/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/comment-page-1/#comment-97098 Michael van der Galien Sat, 01 Sep 2007 16:04:11 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/#comment-97098 No problem Holly. (for what exactly?) No problem Holly.

(for what exactly?)

]]> By: Holly in Cincinnati http://themoderatevoice.com/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/comment-page-1/#comment-97097 Holly in Cincinnati Sat, 01 Sep 2007 15:47:38 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14874/the-koran-and-infidels-make-that-non-muslims/#comment-97097 Thanks Michael! Thanks Michael!

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