McCain, Torture, and (Some) Answers
Last week, I asked TMV readers to consider and chime in on the subject of John McCain’s opposition to torture and the cool reception he receives among certain members of the Leftosphere when he voices that opposition — like he did recently on The Daily Show.
I didn’t get all of the answers for which I was looking, but this much became clear: Love him or hate him, McCain (of all people) does not deserve to be singled out for criticism on this issue. In the words of Entropy, a TMV commenter:
The MCA [Military Commissions Act], obviously, is not perfect and there are a few areas I think should be and could be changed. Still, critics of McCain seem to think he should vote against any legislation that’s not perfect. In such a case, no legislation would ever get passed. Better to have an imperfect law now – a law that can be amended – than to have no law at all. Rarely does the first iteration of legislation come out ‘perfect.’
I wonder why the critics of McCain, who has done more than any other elected official of the US to prohibit detainee abuse, are not equally critical of rest of the US Senate which has done nothing.
Similar sentiments were expressed by other commenters at other sites. For those interested, the complete wrap-up is available at Central Sanity.
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19 Responses to “McCain, Torture, and (Some) Answers”
And so begins my 15 minutes of fame – err – infamy.
Not a bad statement on which to base your 15 minutes. I appreciate your contribution to the effort.
This Komrad accepts McCain’s position on torture, but the pandering to Falwell is another story. His work with Graham on the “Gang of 14″ showed that bipartisanship is possible. His many pluses out weight his market walks. Entropy – congrats to your “Andy Warhol” moment.
“Better to have an imperfect law now – a law that can be amended – than to have no law at all”
I don’t remember if I’ve already chimed in with my agreement, but doing to twice can do no harem.
So, I AGREE.
Why McCain is spurned by those who appreciate his stand on particular issues is as complicated as anything else is. In my case, I applaud him for some positions taken, but I couldn’t vote for him as a first choice,, because some of his other poistions absolutely scare me.
In general, there seems to be a pervasive tendency to ‘bring down’ all public figures. When a haircut, a dog story or cleavage can bring on a firestorm of commentary, that says something about the psychology of the public, and it doesn’t say anything complimentay.
Domajot – I wonder if it says something about the psychology of the public, or the psychology of the pundits?
The problem is McCain says all the right things about torture (it’s bad) but votes to support Bush and his torture approval plans every time – that is why he gets slagged on this by the left.
There would be an estimated 1,350 Americans who have earned the right to criticize McCain…….and I doubt any one of those individuals have done so.
Have some evidence for that? Who wrote and got the DTA (detainee treatment act) into law? McCain.
You talk about lip service, what other elected official has even attempted to do what McCain did? One would think that for all the rhetoric coming from the Democrats, and their ability to bring any legislation they wish to the floor, that we’d see SOMETHING more on torture. We haven’t. So the “left” is slagging McCain because he tried and possibly came up short, but the left gives their leaders, who didn’t even try, (but voted for McCain’s DTA!) a pass. Nice logic there.
Now, I agree with Domajot, I could not vote for McCain for President. In my mind he’s an excellent Senator but would make a lousy President.
Entropy – His power and seniority means that his bills leave committee. A Webb bill/ammendment has been blocked in committee, without the offender coming forward. Junior Senators on both sides get screwed without a patron or friend.
Webb is someone I really respect and I think he and McCain understand the issues as well as anyone. I haven’t heard anything about a Web bill/amendment being stuck in committee. Do you have any additional info on it?
Pete-
On public vs pundit psychology, I hope there is a rational public sector. I hope it’s a majority,even if silent..
When I talk to my friends, I’,m encouraged.
When I listen to the call-ins at C-SPAN, I want to tear my hair out. Advertising does work, and the pundits do have an enormous effect. Many people are gullible.
I worry.
entropy – Webb introduced an amendment to the Defense Spending bill back in March or April regarding an attack on Iranian without Congressional approval. I commented on it here, I’ll have to look for the link. Thomas and other legislative info sites were included.
Entropy – The Iranian post from a while back included the info and links.
http://themoderatevoice.com/places/asia/middle-east/iran/14584/iran-the-gordian-knot-tightens/
I ranted about Lieberman’s Iranian Ptotemkin bill and Webb’s snub, enjoy the info links.
Rudi,
I was under the impression that a Webb bill/amendment on torture was held up in committee. What you cite is an amendment that would preempt any funding for an attack on Iran.
Again, has any Democrat begun anti-torture legislation to correct any real/perceived flaws in McCain’s legislation? Not that I can find.
I can’t be sure on that one, the Iranian amendment search was a pain in the sphincter. Webb is the model for both parties to field moderate candidates in swing districts. The “moonbats”(some) fail to recognize this, the wingnuts too (western Michigan).
Besides I admire his current wife, must have stayed with Colonel Hackworth.
The lack of effort by Democrats to correct our national stance on torture (“It’s ok when we do it quietly to guys we’re really sure are bad”) displeases me.
The assumption that the Military Commision Act is an improvement over no law should be evaluated before using it to establish that McCain didn’t buckle under when torture was front page news. Some times, no law is needed, because existing laws and treaties (“How do you do, this fine evening, Ms. Geneva Convention?”) sufficiently cover the issue.
egrubs,
Perhaps you’re forgetting about McCain’s detainee treatment act (DTA)? That legislation directly addresses torture – the MCA defines what constitutes a War Crime under our obligations to the GC. At worst, the MCA limits severely limits who can be prosecuted for “war crimes” (and for what) under US law, but it doesn’t magically do away with the host of laws and treaties we’ve ratified that have to do with torture and other illegal acts, including the DTA. It’s as if people believe the MCA is the only governing law on detainee treatment and torture – it is obviously not – and that it somehow authorizes torture – it does not.
Isn’t it nice that no one is resorting to namecalling or ad homo….
As I understand it, and my understanding may be limited or incorrect, the MCA creates something like a Geneva-free zone in which the Military Commision operates.
The DTA seems to create loopholes in which torture is acceptable policy.
Much of the meaning of both the MCA and DTA is debated, but when pages of the field manual approved by the DTA are classified, it’s hard to assert what it means in either direction.
It’s…yeah. It’s inconclusively depressing. Evidence is lacking to establish that McCain did not in fact help put into law bills that support torture, no matter how noble his intentions may be.