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	<title>Comments on: Internal displacement at all-time high after surge</title>
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		<title>By: hanginjohnny</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14727/internal-displacement-at-all-time-high-after-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-96080</link>
		<dc:creator>hanginjohnny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/14727/internal-displacement-at-all-time-high-after-surge/#comment-96080</guid>
		<description>And it&#039;s worked so well for Isreal and the Palestinians to have separate zip codes.

Maybe it&#039;s not our business to decide whether Sunni&#039;s and Shias and Kurds (oh my!) should live on the same block. Hard to create a centralized state of Democracy in a culture that has always been held together with an iron fist, or robed arms. When our soldiers can&#039;t tell friend from foe, or the enemy one week becomes the enemy&#039;s enemy, we cannot stand down because they are too busy sneaking up. You watch videos that our troops post online ( that they were allowed too before the ban) and most of the footage makes your blood run cold.These are not the young Replicans sweating in 100+ heat. This should have been at the forefront of the plan, rather than the dog and pony show that Cheney and Bush have used to exploit this for their own misbegotten use.
To compare Iraq to WW2 and VN is completely false.
, misleading and typical of our presidunce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And it&#8217;s worked so well for Isreal and the Palestinians to have separate zip codes.</p>
<p>Maybe it&#8217;s not our business to decide whether Sunni&#8217;s and Shias and Kurds (oh my!) should live on the same block. Hard to create a centralized state of Democracy in a culture that has always been held together with an iron fist, or robed arms. When our soldiers can&#8217;t tell friend from foe, or the enemy one week becomes the enemy&#8217;s enemy, we cannot stand down because they are too busy sneaking up. You watch videos that our troops post online ( that they were allowed too before the ban) and most of the footage makes your blood run cold.These are not the young Replicans sweating in 100+ heat. This should have been at the forefront of the plan, rather than the dog and pony show that Cheney and Bush have used to exploit this for their own misbegotten use.<br />
To compare Iraq to WW2 and VN is completely false.<br />
, misleading and typical of our presidunce.</p>
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		<title>By: Elrod</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14727/internal-displacement-at-all-time-high-after-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-96077</link>
		<dc:creator>Elrod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Marlowecan,
Pacatrue is exactly right about the larger mission. This isn&#039;t WWII and the goal isn&#039;t the annihilation of some clearly defined enemy.  It&#039;s the creation of a multisectarian, stable and peaceful Iraq.

But if we accept your premise and go the Bosnia model then we need to come out and call for a tripartite partition of Iraq. If that&#039;s the goal then internal displacement is a necessary (if painful) conjunction.  But as far as I can see, the official US policy is NOT separation of Iraq into separate countries but rather creation of a centralized state. Given the current strategy, internal displacement is a sign of failure, not success.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marlowecan,<br />
Pacatrue is exactly right about the larger mission. This isn&#8217;t WWII and the goal isn&#8217;t the annihilation of some clearly defined enemy.  It&#8217;s the creation of a multisectarian, stable and peaceful Iraq.</p>
<p>But if we accept your premise and go the Bosnia model then we need to come out and call for a tripartite partition of Iraq. If that&#8217;s the goal then internal displacement is a necessary (if painful) conjunction.  But as far as I can see, the official US policy is NOT separation of Iraq into separate countries but rather creation of a centralized state. Given the current strategy, internal displacement is a sign of failure, not success.</p>
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		<title>By: George Sorwell</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14727/internal-displacement-at-all-time-high-after-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-96075</link>
		<dc:creator>George Sorwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/14727/internal-displacement-at-all-time-high-after-surge/#comment-96075</guid>
		<description>The Iraqis are using the &quot;surge&quot; as cover for their own self-motivated ethnic cleansing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Iraqis are using the &#8220;surge&#8221; as cover for their own self-motivated ethnic cleansing.</p>
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		<title>By: pacatrue</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14727/internal-displacement-at-all-time-high-after-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-96069</link>
		<dc:creator>pacatrue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 08:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/14727/internal-displacement-at-all-time-high-after-surge/#comment-96069</guid>
		<description>The problem, though, MarloweC is that, well, isn&#039;t the surge&#039;s whole purpose of the surge to provide relative stability in certain areas &lt;em&gt;for civilians&lt;/em&gt; so that the political process can take hold? If so, then these sorts of statistics are very much relevant. They don&#039;t work, I agree, for 1944 WWII, because there were separate objectives that the Allies were achieving that required massive military and civilian casualties. However, increased civilian security &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; the objective here. Or are there other objectives to the surge that we are accomplishing to some degree and that I am overlooking? The main other one I can think of is damaging AQI. But the main way we are doing that is by having Sunnis in Anbar also fighting AQI finally, and it isn&#039;t clear that large U.S. troop levels are an important part of this development.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem, though, MarloweC is that, well, isn&#8217;t the surge&#8217;s whole purpose of the surge to provide relative stability in certain areas <em>for civilians</em> so that the political process can take hold? If so, then these sorts of statistics are very much relevant. They don&#8217;t work, I agree, for 1944 WWII, because there were separate objectives that the Allies were achieving that required massive military and civilian casualties. However, increased civilian security <em>is</em> the objective here. Or are there other objectives to the surge that we are accomplishing to some degree and that I am overlooking? The main other one I can think of is damaging AQI. But the main way we are doing that is by having Sunnis in Anbar also fighting AQI finally, and it isn&#8217;t clear that large U.S. troop levels are an important part of this development.</p>
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		<title>By: MarloweC</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14727/internal-displacement-at-all-time-high-after-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-96068</link>
		<dc:creator>MarloweC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 05:12:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/14727/internal-displacement-at-all-time-high-after-surge/#comment-96068</guid>
		<description>Just to add, there is the line - attributed variously to Disraeli or Twain: &quot;There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics.&quot;

The use of metrics to measure success in war is a classic example of this.

In the Boer War, the British suffered over 20 thousand dead - the Boers under 10 thousand. Thus, of course, the Boers must have won.

I944 was the worst year of the Second World War for the Allies in terms of casualties.  Thus, of course, the Allies were losing in 1944.

It is ironic that the Brookings Institute, and the anti-war Left, is resorting to the same pie-chart, body-count metrics as did McNamara and Co. in the Vietnam War.  

Different wars, different agendas, same damned statistics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to add, there is the line &#8211; attributed variously to Disraeli or Twain: &#8220;There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics.&#8221;</p>
<p>The use of metrics to measure success in war is a classic example of this.</p>
<p>In the Boer War, the British suffered over 20 thousand dead &#8211; the Boers under 10 thousand. Thus, of course, the Boers must have won.</p>
<p>I944 was the worst year of the Second World War for the Allies in terms of casualties.  Thus, of course, the Allies were losing in 1944.</p>
<p>It is ironic that the Brookings Institute, and the anti-war Left, is resorting to the same pie-chart, body-count metrics as did McNamara and Co. in the Vietnam War.  </p>
<p>Different wars, different agendas, same damned statistics.</p>
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		<title>By: MarloweC</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14727/internal-displacement-at-all-time-high-after-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-96067</link>
		<dc:creator>MarloweC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 04:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/general/14727/internal-displacement-at-all-time-high-after-surge/#comment-96067</guid>
		<description>OK, to separate the points Elrod raises into 2 segments:

(1) Kevin Drum&#039;s metrics are meaningless. Case in point, apply the same Violence and Infrastructure metrics to the Second World War. By Kevin Drum&#039;s metrics, in early 1945 - after the bloodbaths of Iwo Jima, D-day, Okinawa and the Battle of the Bulge, given the Allies&#039; staggering losses and the annihilation of Infrastructure on all sides (except the continental US) - the Allies were desperately losing World War Two. 

Body counts and civilian bombings do not measure success in war.

(2) All time high internal displacement = US failure.
The two undeniably successful counter-insurgencies of the past century - the British in the BoEr War and in the Malayan &quot;Emergency&quot; - were characterized by massive displacement of civilians. In the Malayan counter-insurgency, the British displaced hundreds of thousands into camps. 

In both cases, the British won.

Displacement has been a core technique of successful counter-insurgency ever since.  The fact that it is occurring in Iraq may thus not be a sign of disaster. Stability did not come to the Balkans until the warring populations were separated...and it will not likely come to Iraq until the Sunni, Kurd and Shi&#039;a populations are separated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, to separate the points Elrod raises into 2 segments:</p>
<p>(1) Kevin Drum&#8217;s metrics are meaningless. Case in point, apply the same Violence and Infrastructure metrics to the Second World War. By Kevin Drum&#8217;s metrics, in early 1945 &#8211; after the bloodbaths of Iwo Jima, D-day, Okinawa and the Battle of the Bulge, given the Allies&#8217; staggering losses and the annihilation of Infrastructure on all sides (except the continental US) &#8211; the Allies were desperately losing World War Two. </p>
<p>Body counts and civilian bombings do not measure success in war.</p>
<p>(2) All time high internal displacement = US failure.<br />
The two undeniably successful counter-insurgencies of the past century &#8211; the British in the BoEr War and in the Malayan &#8220;Emergency&#8221; &#8211; were characterized by massive displacement of civilians. In the Malayan counter-insurgency, the British displaced hundreds of thousands into camps. </p>
<p>In both cases, the British won.</p>
<p>Displacement has been a core technique of successful counter-insurgency ever since.  The fact that it is occurring in Iraq may thus not be a sign of disaster. Stability did not come to the Balkans until the warring populations were separated&#8230;and it will not likely come to Iraq until the Sunni, Kurd and Shi&#8217;a populations are separated.</p>
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