A Strange Feeling
During my stay in Turkey, I have visited several mosques. Last week Friday and today I did not just visit mosques: I went there with a Muslim and joined the men in prayer. Some of my Christian brethren might be shocked by this, but I did not have a big problem with praying with Muslims and praying like they do. In fact, I found the praying to be… comforting. I obviously prayed to God as in the Christian God, and I did not silently pray the same prayer the Muslims prayed: I prayed to the Christian concept of God and chose my own words / thoughts…
But it was comforting nonetheless. When praying, I was – today and last week Friday as well – overwhelmed by a very positive, peaceful feeling. Or perhaps peaceful or positive energy is the best word to describe this feeling. I realized that, in the end, we all pray – more or less – to the same God. I am not a Muslim because I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and because I differ with Muslims on the significance of Mohammed, but I can pray with them and pray to our God with them: the God of love and peace. To me, they may be misguided about Jesus and about certain other things, but – as I said – in the end, they pray to and believe in the same God we Christians pray to and believe in.
In other words: their perception of God might be a bit faulty, from my Christian perspective, but that does not mean that they do not worship the same God and that one cannot find peace when surrounded by Muslims and (while) praying with them.
Those of you who choose to criticize me are most likely individuals who have never visited mosques and who have never joined Muslims in their Friday prayer. Those who have, I am sure, will second my feelings: a mosque truly feels like a Church to me. I have no problem with praying to my God in a mosque. In fact, I found it refreshing.
One of the main things I like about praying in the mosque is that one has to ritually clean oneself before entering the mosque. First one cleans one’s hands. Then one cleans one’s mouth (three times). Same goes for the nose. Then the face. After the face one cleans one’s arms: starting with the right arm, then, after three times, one cleans the left arm. After the arms comes the forehead / head, followed by the ears and neck. Lastly, one cleans one’s feet: again right foot first.
The result: one feels refreshed and re-energized.
A Muslim friend told me that the ritual releases positive energy in one’s body. Whether that is true or not I do not know, but I do know that I certainly feel good whenever I do this.
The prayer itself is a ritual as well, and just as refreshing. One literally throws oneself before God. The repetition of the movements creates an almost hypnotic feeling. One falls on one’s knees and presses one’s head to the floor in worship.
I do not believe it to be necessary to pray like that, but doing it feels quite good.
When the Imam was singing the Quran, I was contemplating how I felt. I realized that I felt good, and that I had overcome the feelings of… well I am not sure how to call those feelings. The first time I prayed in a mosque I was wondering about whether or not I did the right thing: the second time I did not have those strong doubts anymore. I realized that it was good. It felt good.
I also thought about how peaceful one feels in a mosque and how awkward and infuriating it must be for Muslims that – at the same time – other Muslims are killing Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus and atheists alike, all in the name of Islam. To think about it made even my blood boil, and I am not a Muslim but a Christian. Imagine what it must feel like for Muslims.
Besides praying in mosques I also visited mosques as a tourist. The most beautiful mosque I visited is the so-called Blue Mosque. It is incredibly beautiful. Those of you who never visited Istanbul / Turkey should really come here once and visit this grand mosque. It is only a hundred meters or something away from… the Hagia Sofia: the ancient Church, built by Emperor Justinian.
The photo above is of the Blue Mosque (found online – I took pictures myself but not on a digital camera).
OK – that is it for now: I have to do other stuff. More about Turkey later today or tomorrow.
This post has been cross posted at my own blog.
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28 Responses to “A Strange Feeling”
“To me, they may be misguided about Jesus and about certain other things, but – as I said – in the end, they pray to and believe in the same God we Christians pray to and believe in.”
Indeed, an important point, Mike. In times like these, where muslims generally are regarded as potentially dangerous fanatics, it’s good to bring this back to mind.
I’m sure some heads are blowing up as they read this!
What I find frustrating about the sentiment in the passage that Gray quoted though, is that it often seems that even suggesting differences of belief or opinion is an expression of superiority and a sign of intolerance. It is natural and correct, IMO, for you to express that you believe that Muslims are misguided or that they misunderstand things about God from your perspective. Some would criticize you for arrogance in that regard which is quite silly; of course you disagree or you would BE a Muslim instead of a Christian.
As to praying in mosques, I’ve never had the experience but I see no problem with it. After all, this prominent Christian and this one have done so as well.
Strange – when I was at the Great Mosque at Xian, built in the middle of the 8th century, it felt strangely like a synagogue with its men in beards and made me feel very much at home. Since I too wear a beard, some children came up to me and called me “cousin.”
The extensive gardens show the strong influence of Buddhism and Taoism you can’t avoid in China but listening to the suras being read as I walked there was a very moving experience even for a non-believer. I found myself singing the Allahu Akhbar tune all afternoon. I’ve never had such a feeling in any Christian establishment nor have I ever been able to separate it from the horrors of its history, but just writing about Xian is bringing back the closest thing I’ve ever had to a religious experience.
No matter how much my blood or anyone’s blood may boil thinking about Jihadists, my ancestors boiled and bled and burned at Christian hands for over a thousand years. It’s a little galling to hear about someone else getting Jesus wrong.
Muslims, of course do not pray to tripartite Gods: murdered and resurrected gods who are actually their own fathers; who are also seen as birds who impregnate women and whose characteristics and graven images and mysterious contradictions have been borrowed wholesale from Mithraism, the Attis cult and Zurvanism among others, nor would they appreciate the condescending pap about getting God a little wrong from people who do.
I’m a non-believer who likes places of worship of all kinds (during sermonless times) because they provide space that is friendly to reflections on the highest aspirations of man. These quiet spaces facilitate contemplating the human potential for what is good. This is my equivalent of prayer, I guess.
During my ‘prayer’, there is no room for a compartive God analysis or worries about the wrong-headedness of others on the premises.
Stuff like that taints prayers of all types, IMO,
I too am a non-believer that has been in many places of worship, though I have only ever been inside churches (and one synagogue, but it barely counts since it was just a small prayer-space within the Yad Vashem). I too find them peaceful places good for reflection, especially the older ones. The silence and beauty, very often in contrast with the noise and modern buildings outside, makes it feel like a retreat. I don’t believe a single word of the faiths in whose names the buildings are built, but I can appreciate the wonder and peace they bring.
As for being inside a Mosque…well…easier said than done sometimes Michael. I went to the Temple Mount just a month ago and they didn’t let westerners in at all. In others I’m told that a western man can go, but not a woman. Maybe Turkey is more tolerant, the day I go (and I will) I hope to find out.
Domajot,
In a way I agree, but of course cathedrals and mosques and churches weren’t really designed for that, but for the promulgation of a certain set of beliefs and the exclusion of others. None the less, I get the same feeling as you do. These buildings are often designed to inspire awe and they succeed. My only objection here is to statements patronizing other people as having wrong beliefs. There is every bit as much fact and reason behind Hinduism, Islam and the worship of Zeus as there is behind any other theistic religion and I find it objectionable when someone says “they have Jesus wrong” Who is to say?
I think there is more room for honest contemplation in the woods, on mountaintops, on beaches and astronomical observatories and under trees in the park.
Cap’t Fogg-
Your last comment makes a lot of sense.
I think all religions lose when they phrase their beliefs in terms of right vs. wrong interpretations of God, instead of seeing their own beliefs as just one manifestation of man’s attempt to deal with the same eternal questions. This God, that God, or no God, it’s all about the human spirit, as I see it, and the ultimate meaning of “God is everywhere”.
When in France, I was struck by the remnants of the destruction caused by their religious wars, while the steeples of all churches and cathedrals aimed at the same heavens.
“What I find frustrating about the sentiment in the passage that Gray quoted though, is that it often seems that even suggesting differences of belief or opinion is an expression of superiority and a sign of intolerance. It is natural and correct, IMO, for you to express that you believe that Muslims are misguided or that they misunderstand things about God from your perspective.”
I noticed that, too, C, but chose to ignore it. Hell, it’s awfully difficult to stay totally neutral on this topic. Maybe an atheist would have phrased this more neutral, but I see that Mike is a Christian, no matter how attracted by that right-wing, dark side of The Force. Myself being a Catholic, I understand that he feels he has to avoid any unproper observance of something that might be a golden calf. Really, he went as far in tolerating Islam as Christians can go. Sry, but there can’t be two truths.
:-/
I certainly hope & pray that your experience in Turkey at the Mosque fills your heart with Peace, not just because you Prayed in that mosque, but the reality of the Mosque is always, first in the Heart. I would like to share a moment of your time, with regards to Prophet Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him)
according to the Original Scriptures, if you may wish to read this Link :
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/Jesus_prophet/not_a_son01.php
Yes exactly. This might be the first time that you, Christine and I all agree on the same issue.
Finally some common ground, Mike! Wow, let’s celebrate!!!
Ok, serious now,Mike. Congratualtions on your courage to get first hand experience of the everyday worship of Allah. I really don’t know if I would have tried that (even though I’m liberal, I’m a bit afraid of a possible violent response when joining Muslims in prayer. Heck, maybe it’s because I’m a liberal, dunno).
LOL, I had the same thought- common ground, finally!
Ok, great, c, but damn, C, pls be a more, uh, shrewed tonight. I’m already in an romantic mood. Hey, are you married?
You can’t handle people expressing their true opinions. Michael, you are a loser and wimp, which should come as no surprise being that you are a European. You are indeed typical dhimmi eurotrash.
Why would any sane, normal person want to experience that. I’ll say it again, regardless of who is offended, I hate islam and its vile, hideous practitioners. I guess you losers will have to keep spending your time deleting my posts since you can’t handle the truth. This blog sucks and michael, you turned out to be a real pathetic loser.
I don’t think we’re losers Laura, but we are explorers; it’s our work in the world. I understand the opprobrium toward various groups. Personally. But also, I am more interested in why you hate… and whether we can together see that there are many kinds of ‘practitioners’ of many kinds of belifs, some good, some not good at all. …
I’m just about to put up a post about my learning about Islam that began when I went to Mosque services with Muslim women here right after 9-11.
I would just say wouldnt you, that there’s a difference often and sometimes between those who ‘publicly’ speak for Islam and those who practice it. And those who are afraid to speak. Just like there’s a difference often in timbre, tone and often belief
between Black spokespeople and the souls who are also black who are worshipping their ways. And Latinos. And many groups from Europe and all the world…?
dr.e
Dr. E-
In your reflections about religion, and the different ‘prarctioners’ of it, I wonder if you have come across any parallels between religious hatreds and political ones?
I was struck by this statement by Gray:” Sry, but there can’t be two truths.”
It seems to me this gets at the heart of both religious and political stiife. As it happens, it also goes directly against what I believe. While there may not be two ultimate truths. I don’t believe that any mortal is or has ever been in possession of such a thing as an Ultimate Truth. Instead we are all seekers on different paths. We all possess pieces of truth and fight over the pieces as if that’s all there is. Instead of MY Truth, we think we own THE TRUTH.
I ask about politics, because I note the same degree of allegience to political philosophies of late than to ones of religion. People agonize about whether an opinion on a specific issue or event fits into theri chosen political theory, and they worry about the sin of betraying that philosophy.
Re Pres. Bush, a lot of the criticism now is not about whether or not his policies did any good for American citizens but about the fact that he betrayed Conservatism. Again, its that question of allegience to THE TRUTH. It sounds a lot like the kind of reaction we would hear, if he renounced Christianity and became a Budhist.
I would be very interested to know if you see any parallels between religious and political strife, the truth vs THE TRUTH and allegience to the idea that My Truth is THE TRUTH instead of a stopover on the seeker’s road to knowledge and understanding.
dear Domajot, good root questions… Just a two cent’s worth… Yes, I think there are parallels between religious / political hatreds; ( loves too) but they appear to be seated in the individual who hates, then funnels hate through all they touch. They tend to attract like-kind. Too, many people, perhaps make God far far too small, then press home their small version of The Great, posterizing their ‘piece of truth’ as you put it, til it becomes all there is to choose from. I think, definitively, that when archetypal representations are suppressed in the culture, that’s what we get, one idea of TRUTH. One idea about the Force that is made of billions of ideas.
Conquest, competition for ‘who’s on top,’ who has the most money, dominion over others, has existed in hierarchies of religion /politics since, I think, ‘the beginning’. It isn’t what I’d personally understand politics or religion to be about. One, I think, was meant to be about governance not of people, but in service to the people. One is about governance not of others, but of one’s soul.
There is an old saying Domajot, which I am fond of: He who has seen God, Knows he has seen God, has not seen God. I’m not a cynic; I am an old believer–my experiences of God shake me to pieces. Still I know there is much more of God to know…. more than this little carapace can hold.
The allegiance you speak of, the ‘loyalty’ to all alliances that come from that… I think comes under the category of Chauvinism, which I wrote about here a few days ago. Chauvinism means to give unquestioned loyalty to an idea, person or principle. Chauvinism feels ‘safe’ because people bond to one another through ‘loyalty to the idea’ sometimes, to ‘a person’ as well. Viz GWB et al. People feeling so safe, are actually vulnerable, for they are held by only one slim thread; loyalty to not question, veer, have a new idea, act untoward or differently than the others. It is a religion with a patriarch, members, they make contributions, worship the same saints, et al. It is not even that that’s bad if the premise is for the true public good, is transparent in process, is not exclusionary.
Churches for decades have been run like a political body, a body politic… they have committees, fund raising, political influence, log roll, gerrymander, et al. That’s not bad either, if the premise is for the good of all souls, is transparent, is inclusive, puts more emphasis on social justice, the beatitudes, charity, than on gaining power over others.
there are parallels, as you astutely see, between religious political strife. I used to have a world map with a pin everywhere there was a war in the world. Often the fighting factions were driven by the heads of religious groups, who also happened to be the heads of state, or influential in politics.
To me, Domajot, everything, EVERYTHING is politics and religiosity in some way. I believe we are made that way; as seekers, lovers, and with natural instincts toward wise governance of all that puts itself under our protection.
I just wrote abut the body as politics. Joe and I had spoken a few days ago about this series I’ve been working on re the way the over-culture splits the body into also having only ONE true way of being, knowing, acting … With his go-ahead and encouragement, which I appreciate, I posted the second piece earlier tonight.
My experience of writing about the body or God, or both together as I often do…. at TMV, is that though readers sometimes write me privately with thoughtful comments and Q’s, sometimes my articles on God and body seem to draw sarcasm or condemnation as though religiosity and politics and the ecstatic, don’t belong with the body or sexuality, et al. I’m afraid I’m probably hopeless to change at this late date: I believe they do.
Here tonight, I am always made happy that commenters brave to say thoughtful things and propose questions which I think further rather than cut the conversations… about what they think and feel about this topic Michael wrote about. I am often struck by the insights and inquisitiveness of the commenters on TMV.
To me, self knowing, self governance is best married rather than split away from governance to serve others. I am still learning Domajot, so perhaps I am wrong. But, I think I am on the right track…
Thank you Michael, for letting me take up way more than my share of space on your article… which I liked. Braver to love than to hate. Just my two cents worth.
dr.e
Dr E-
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I was relieved to see that I had pretty much made myself understood as to my questions. I find it hard to find the appropriate vocabulary for ideas that umble in my head but for which there is no text I can follow, so I have iot make the phrasing up as I go along.
I’ve been discussing ideas along these lines with a friend in France off and on for some months.
Thanks for your input.
MVDG=
I owe you an apology, for diverting this thread to my personal interests. I didn’t realize when I started to write how far afield I would wander.
I hope Michael doesn’t mind the diversion and Doma, I hope you forgive my reflections on what I realize was a discussion between you and Dr. E.
The way I see it, in our various explorations, some of us tend to map out and plan a route and then (understandably, I think) become determined to stick pretty closely to that particular course. Other people tend to want to explore the paths as they present themselves and wander a bit until one of the paths feels right, then feel free to divert to other paths that seem interesting or that seem to take them where they want to go. Personally I think it is good that there are both sorts of people.
In the literal sense of that analogy, I tend to be the latter type and my husband is the former. We hike a lot and sometimes my way wins out and we explore places that are off the beaten track which we’d never have found on a map. Other times, it’s better that hubs uses maps and GPS to keep us on course, or we’d not be able to navigate to certain known places that we want to visit (and we’d often put ourselves at risk of getting lost or entering dangerous areas).
In philosophical terms of how I view the world though, I’m much more of an orthodox person. I read, think and make up my mind as to which approaches to life and theology and politics seems most likely to approach the “Truth”, and then I follow that path where it leads. I’m agreeable to checking the map and considering diversions from the main path (which separates me, I think, from chauvanistic believers who won’t challenge their preconceived notions), but I’m going to consider them in the context of whether or not they might lead to the destination that I have in mind. In theological terms, I don’t think that all paths are equally likely to do so and I do think that some of the paths could put me at risk for losing sight of the ‘real’ path to God.
I don’t judge others who take a less orthodox approach, but I resent that some of them seem to judge my choice. I reserve the right to say to others that I believe that I’m following the correct path; I fail to see how others feel that there’s some sort of arrogance and/or ‘hatred’ in doing that. I could just as well say that they are being ‘haters’ by criticizing my choice of staying on course.
As a Muslim, I was interested in this post, which my (non-Muslim) husband noticed and emailed to me. In brief response to a few points in the comments section, I don’t find it condescending that you feel Muslims have erroneous beliefs regarding Jesus and the nature of God– obviously I respectfully believe that Christians are in error. The important point is the respect in our feelings about the other. I would also say, as a former Christian, that in my experience we tend not to understand each other’s faiths well at all, and that we would really benefit from reading books that explain each faith from the perspective of its practitioners. I have found The Vision of Islam (Chittick and Murata) a very good explanation of Islam; I’d be interested to have suggestions of books Muslims should read to better understand Christianity, and I’d personally be interested in the same about Judaism. I know that I found the book, “Hide and Seek”, about the hair covering practices of Jewish women, to be extremely moving, as a Muslim woman who prefers to cover her hair. Our experiences are different, and that’s fine, but the parallels, the overlaps, are real opportunities for brother- and sisterhood across the lines of faith.
Gray, C Stanley and Lynx, you would be welcomed in your local mosque. Some mosques in very patriarchal societies don’t allow women in the main prayer space, and some have no real space for women at all, in spite to Muhammad’s injunction to not prevent women from visiting the mosques. Also, considering that Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock are very contested spaces, I’m not surprised that the locals are protective of them.
For anyone who’s interested, go to http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/salat/salat9.asp, and click on Salat: How to Perform Daily Prayers, right above the little illustration of the prayer movements. It’s a very lovely little video and explanation of prayer.
Oh, and hi Laura!
Hana-
Lovely response.
CS-
Using your hiking analogy, let me join you and your husband in mountain hiking. . While you and your husband use different approaches to choosing a path to the mountaintop of ultimate knowlege, I remain acutely aware that no mortal is in a helicopter above, able to simultaneously survey all the paths as a grid and also see the mountaintop to which they lead.
To think that someone is mistaken in choosing a different path is simply a difference of opinion. People can understand and respect the reasoning behind choosing another path, even while continuing to disagree (see Hana’s lovely
comment).
I do find that thinkimg that a certain path is the ONLY path leading up does indeed, involve arrogance, IMO, It can easily be mitigated, however, by a touch of humility, by remembering that man’s puny capabilities may simply not be up to understanding the enormity of the WHOLE TRUTH. The affirmation of faith I respect most is one that says,without fear or shame: “I don’t know, but I believe X to be true.”.
I hope I didn’t start a firestorm by using the word ‘arrogance’. I hope you undestand the difference between that and thinking someone is mistaken.
Hana: fascinating. Did you convert to Islam before or after you married if I may ask?
Thanks for the link, very interesting.
Books: I agree. We all should read more about each other’s beliefs. I am currently reading “The Quran: Unchallengeable Miracles” by Caner Taslaman. This book was a bestseller in Turkey and they now translated it into English.
I do not know whether it is easily available in other countries but here in Turkey it is quite well known.
Also: exactly. As a Muslim you belief that we Christians hold erronous beliefs about the nature of Christ, who you consider to be a prophet but not the Son of God. Vice versa of course for Christians. There is nothing arrogant about that as far as I can tell.
Doma: no problem – I will not respond too much to it due to lack of time. Remember: I am still in Turkey.
Hi Michael,
I converted after I met, but before I married my husband. The process of becoming a Muslim was one that had been in subtle motion in my life many years before I met him, and the loving support he gives me helped me to make that change in my life. Also helpful were the many amazingly intelligent blogs online by Muslim-born and Muslim-convert women. I think my conversion has been challenging in some ways to my husband and friends and family, but I have had a much easier experience than some have and insha’Allah they can see the happiness I have in Islam and the benefit it has been to me. I don’t want to take up your blog space with my personal story but if you or your readers have any questions I’ll be happy to answer them in another space.
I agree.
One should be respectful, but firm and discerning in finding the Truth.
Truth will eventually prevail over all type of falsehood.
But we shouldn’t blindly follow anything without verifying it with people of knowledge and AUTHENTIC sources and books.
That way, we have a firm and unwavering belief in the Truth instead of instability.
Anyway, here is a good site to read, from an Islamic perspective, the many issues related to Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), Mary (peace be upon her), the Gospels, the Bible and Christianity in depth:
http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/contents.html
May God guide those who truly seek the truth, to the straight path. Amen.