Musharaff is a disaster anyways, politically, economically, and legally within his own country even without our “help”. He made the move for nukes, and should have been viewed as a pariah instead of some kind of an ally to begin with. He’s our flavour of dictator, a bad one thats why the government of fools we have coddles him. He is no better than the rulers of Saudia Arabia that one moment look friendly, but as soon as they leave the room laugh their heads off at us.

This is a rare moment…..I agree with Obama, and by doing so agree with Laura LOL.

Time for Delta Force ops, has been ticking since 2002, and Rummy was an idiot for not using them.

A police officer on his night patrol stumbles across a drunk old man who is tumbling up and down a broadly lit street, shouting “Oh my darling, oh my darling, oh my darling, Clementine!”
“What are you doing here, Sir, why don’t you go home?”
“Why, I’,m lookin for my turtle, of coursh. Ran away, da shtupid thing”
Ok, the officer is a nice guy so he searches the surroundings, looking for the creepy animal. Nothing!
“How long is it gone?”
“About ten minutesh!”
The cop searches in a wider radius, but finally comes to the conclusion that it’s quite improbable that a turtle would have gone this far in such short a time.
“You sure you lost it here?”
“Nonshense! I loshtit in da park, but dare itsh mutsh too dark to look forit!”

Now, seriously, if a bunch of terrorists during 6 years time managed only to move from the center of Afghanistan to the western part of Pakistan, this doesn’t strike me as extremly fast moving nor overly dynamic!

Of course you have a point here, Marlowe. This reminds me of an old joke (maybe the younger ones here don’t know it):

A police officer on his night patrol stumbles across a drunk old man who is crawling around a street lantern.
“What are you doing there, sir, why don’t you go home?”
“Why, I’,m lookin for my keysh of coursh. Losht ‘em.”
Ok, the officer is a nice guy so he get’s down on his knees and searches the pavement. Nothing!
“You sure you lost them here?”
“Nonshense! I losht ‘em in da park, but dare itsh mush too darg to look for dem!”

Yup, indeed, why go after Al Quaeda in Pakistan when it’s easier and more political convenient to invade Iraq!

Of course you have a point ehre, Marlowe, but this reminds me of an old joke (maybe the younger ones here don’t know it):

A police officer on his night patrol stumbles across a drunk old man who is crawöing around a street lantern.
“What are you doing there, sir, why don’t you go home?”
“Why, I’,m lookin for my keysh of coursh. Losht ‘em.”
Ok, the officer is a nice guy so he get’s down on his knees and searches the pavement. Nothing!
“You sure you lost them here?”
“Nonshense! I losht ‘em in da park, but dare itsh mutsh too dark to look for dem!

Yup, indeed, why hunt Al Quaeda in Pakistan when it’s much easier and more political convenient to hunt for them in Saddam’s Iraq!

So Hillary is calling Obama irresponsible for something she agrees with. And the media is letting her get away with it.

Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama said Wednesday that the United States should reserve the right to invade the territory of its Pakistani allies and withdraw U.S. financial aid if it believes Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf is failing to do enough to stop terrorists.

“If we have actionable intelligence about high value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won’t act, we will,” Obama said at the Woodrow Wilson Center here [in Washington, DC]. “I will not hesitate to use military force to take out terrorists who pose a direct threat to America.”

I completely agree with Obama on this, assuming he truly believes what he is saying and would act on it should he become president.

1. No mention of the United Nations. I guess this really confirms the right wing belief that the United Nations is some place to go if you really do not want anything done.
2. No mention of Congress. I guess when the Democrats control all facets of the government, there will be no more need for oversight.
3. He used the phrase “ending the war in Iraq” when he meant ending the participation of the U.S. in hostilities in Iraq. There is a huge difference.
4. He pulled the two brigades as a proper additional force size out of his ass. What if the Joint Staff and the CENTCOM commander says no? Will he try to conduct military operations from the White House like Jimmy Carter?
5. Senator Obama would conduct military operations in a country without a declaration of war and without diplomatic negotiations. I wonder if Congress will conduct any oversight? Doubt it.
6. Senator Obama makes the naïve argument that if you put proper people in charge, then the intelligence community will change its culture. The last few years should convince everyone otherwise.
7. Senator Obama talks about negotiations but when he wants action he avoids the subject.
8. Senator Obama also talks about nation building and democratizing the world. Have we not learned our lesson yet on this topic?
9. I also love the part concerning a new jobs program for liberal arts majors who want to travel the world.
10. I also like the top down command structure. Does Senator Obama really want to nationalize all emergency services personnel?

That part was grounded in two aspects: we reclaim our moral authority and becoming the City on the Hill again to the rest of the world, and we use bottom-up measures to try and spread our culture and way of thought. It seems to be a lot more similar to how we approached the Soviet bloc (which has gone pretty well IMO).

It’s naive to think this will work in the Middle East, because as it stands Islam is broken there. I think it has a better shot in many African countries though, and also in places like Indonesia and Malaysia which arguably have a similar threat potential as most Middle East countries. I said “disturbing” because the rhetoric isn’t refined enough and could make countries pull away because it is too much like the neocon venture (also it is disturbing because Obama might get full of himself and try to go the fast route. In general my main concern with him is that while I agree with a lot of his ideas, they are 20+ year ventures and would be disastrous as 8 year ones.) but functionally it is a lot different and more reasoned.

A big reason Bush invaded Iraq was that it was the “low hanging fruit” on the tree of the Axis of Evil.

Iraq had a degraded military. We had ample experience there. It was near water, so allowed for carrier access. Allies were immediate adjacent for a staging area. And…I will say it again…NO NUKES.

If you are convinced Iraq is a disaster, what would violating Pak sovereignty lead to? National humiliation certainly…the deposition of the government…what would take its place?

Mikkel said: “There is a lot to criticize about his plan (especially the overly idealistic and disturbingly similar democracy for all parts…

Elrod, you are right. Not many folks are noticing the Neo-Wilsonian aspect of this, as Mikkel pointed out…that can be explosive in the Muslim world…given that almost all the major players there seem to regard democracy as a plague.

“…but having a nuclear armed country run by the ISI (Pakistani intelligence that helped Taliban to victory and probably has been hiding Al Qaeda figures) is too much for me.”

I have to give Obama credit for raising this issue. Pakistan is a nightmare in waiting. Probably the most rational solution is Bush’s (monitor/occasional Predator strikes/lean on the Pak gov occasionally with a high level visit/wait to see if India & Pakistan will nuke each other over Kashmir and remove the problem from Western concerns).

But when even your hated ChimpCo. balks at military action in a theatre…that should give all liberals reason to pause.

Indeed, Elrod! Words of wisdom, folks.

Where was this reluctance to “open a huge can of worms” in the run up to the Iraq war? It’s not the handling of some worms that is the foremost problem, firstly it’s the proper assessment which can is the right one that’s harboring the enemy. Afghanistan: Right can. Iraq: Totally wrong can. Western border province of Pakistan: Check content.