a) Distortion: the taking of comments out of context to try to prove a point when contextualized cannot be achieved.

b) Strawmanning: a form of distortion, when commenter 1 says A, commenter 2 says #1 said B, then argues against B, and does not touch A because they cannot refute it.

c) The Godfather Gambit: a dialectic trick that came about in the 1970s, when Italian-American rights groups protested the Coppola films claiming that even portraying Italians in the Mob was slanderous to all Italians.

What I claimed about the Army Rangers is well known in military circles, so when I criticized Tillman and the Rangers, I made sure to differentiate between them and regular grunts. When you or the others claim I slander all the military, it’s like those who claim that a Mob movie slanders all Italians. That’s BS, and dishonest.

But, even amidst the dung, you admit that I was the one arguing, ‘honor service, yes, but do not too liberally apply the hero moniker.’

Things become so clear when undistorted.

Gray: Superstar and hero are different shoes. If they were the same thing there could be no analogy. But the underlying principles apply.

And, I’m not comparing Murphy to Jordan, but comparing Murphy’s relation as a hero to a non-hero like Tillman to Jordan’s greatness as a player to that of a HS scrub. I could just as easily have said Audie Murphy is Einstein and Tillman a mediocre math teacher, but the relative worth of the claims of heroism for the two would still be the same.

In short, if the term hero was a job, and the two men applied for it with their resumes, Murphy would have a thick dossier to provide, while Tillman would have a blank sheet of paper, and perhaps an 8×10 glossy.

The very fact that this whole nonsense is sprouting conspiracy theories- what’s next? Tillman’s body taken to Area 51 to be dissected by aliens?- is symptomatic of our celebrity obsessed culture. Fame used to be a thing acquired for accomplishment. An Edmund Hilary or a Douglas MacArthur were famed for great feats. Celebrities are just known for being known.

If that tires you, change it.

But, a look at som eof the threads at TMV, where people refuse to opt out of the R&D electoral duopoly shows just how entrenched people are in their mindsets. People want to know every fart a celebrity takes, and when a bad thing happens to one it’s news.

Do you really think Tillman is the only dead guy in the two wars whose death was not papered over? Of course not. Revelations still come out about the dead from Korea. But, the only reason we hear about Tillman and not your average grunt whose death has been falsified is that Tillman was an NFL star, and the others were not.

Celebrity = hero?

Things haven’t gotten that bad yet, despite the best efforts of some.

You obviously don’t read Pat Lang’s blog if you think he’s a right-winger.

Cosmo:

Entropy: ‘Honor service, yes, but do not too liberally apply the hero moniker.’

Seems someone said that before.

Seems like someone said something about “bicpep brain,” “dumb jock,” and other such nonsense.

First Bergman, now Antonioni.

Michelangelo Antonioni, the Italian director whose chilly depictions of alienation were cornerstones of international filmmaking in the 1960s, inspiring intense measures of admiration, denunciation and confusion, died on Monday at his home in Rome, Italian news media reported today. He was 94. He died on the same day as Ingmar Bergman, the Swedish filmmaker who died at his home in Sweden earlier Monday….

‘A hero, sure. But not for the military successes, but because he put himself into clear and present danger, beyond the call of duty. How many tanks he destroyed is secondary, that depended on a lot of luck, too. Would he have been less of a hero if a strayed bullet would have killed him in his very first day? I don’t think so.’

Well, no. Would Jordan have become a superstar if he had a stroke in high school? The point is a hero, or a superstar, or any other appellation- a great or a genius, is applied AFTER an accomplishment (or three or ten). That’s the point.

And a person’s demeanor has nothing to do with their heroism in a field. MacArthur and Nimitz were loathed by their men, but both had great military accomplishments. US Grant was a joke to his men, for his drunkenness- BUT, come crunch time they knew he’d deliver.

Entropy: ‘Honor service, yes, but do not too liberally apply the hero moniker.’

Seems someone said that before.

Gray: ‘That Tillman was interested in Noam Chomsky’s ideas seems to make it kind of a blessing that he was killed.’

So, he’d be more or less of a hero to you because of his political beliefs rather than his battlefield accomplishments (or lack thereof)? So, when Barry Bonds breaks Hank Aaron’s home run record, will you be pissed because he’s a steroid freak and cheater, or mollified if he, at least, subscribes to National Review?

The assassination angle is just a logical extension of the hero myth. One does not assassinate ordinary suckers who step into a bullet, but heroes, only cabals can take them down.

mw: Still distorting. Watched The Godfather lately? Go ahead, lie a bit more, the snare is set. Some folk never learn.

As for Pat Land, a quite thoughtful column on Tillman, better than most of the stories in right wing blogs. But I have two major problems with him:

“Mary Tillman evidently wants to believe that her son’s death has some esoteric meaning. ”
Where did he get this idea? Insisting on knowing the truth about the death of a beloved is somehow becoming esoteric in US? I call Bull! And evne most right wingers admit that the whole Army investigation is suffering from so many falsifications and omissions, that it’s definitely not helping in establishing any certainty about the true circumstances.

“Nevertheless, one must ask, would Tillman be less dead if they had reported his death properly?”
This question is so idiotic thyat it hurts my brain. Really, what can be gained by investigating a killing when the victim is dead? Why, nothing but truth and justice!
Do these words not have a serious meaning for Pat Lang?
:-/

From prior experience in a remarkably similar recent thread, I can offer the good news that no response is really required. Just put out the rope and he does the right thing all by himself.

By the same token some on the left have stupidly suggested that Tillman was murdered by members of his unit for his supposedly leftist views.

I think Pat Lang get’s it right on Tillman.

Tillman voluntarily put his life at risk for his principles, not for gain and not for fame.
I respect him for that.

I can’t respect the use of his death for suspect ulterior motives, not when it’s the government trying to create a false rectuitment poster, and not when someone uses the death to showcase
his/her disdain for decency in others.

As someone who served for many years both on active duty and the reserve, I would caution people to be wary of elevating those in military service to a status above that of other citizens. Certainly, as Jason points out, service should be recognized and honored, but putting military members as a class onto a pedestal risks, imo, flirting with militarism. Honor service, yes, but do not too liberally apply the hero moniker.

Tillman is a case where I think people should agree to disagree since it is particularly subjective. Tillman should be praised for putting his beliefs and sense of duty above materialistic concerns – if only more in our society would do the same – but does that make him a hero? Probably not, in my view, but I won’t criticize someone who takes an opposite view since it is just as valid.

Well, now for your praise on Murphy. A hero, sure. But not for the military successes, but because he put himself into clear and present danger, beyond the call of duty. How many tanks he destroyed is secondary, that depended on a lot of luck, too. Would he have been less of a hero if a strayed bullet would have killed him in his very first day? I don’t think so.

And that’s why I think your comparison doesn’t succeed in diminishing Pat Tillman’s personal bravery. He didn’t have to sign up, he didn’t have to join one of the most endangered units. But he did, and served honorably. That he died before he even had a chance to catch Bin Laden singlehandedly doesn’t change his character a little bit and shouldn’t diminish our respect for him.

As for bringing Michael Jordan into this: I never heard he was in the military. Surely you’re joking, Mr. Cosmoerratica.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/movies/30cnd-bergman.html?_r=2&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1185802233-UD14gfjmRZsf/gdChCtBaA&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

Ingmar Bergman, the “poet with the camera” who is considered one of the greatest directors in motion picture history, died today on the small island of Faro where he lived on the Baltic coast of Sweden, Astrid Soderbergh Widding, president of The Ingmar Bergman Foundation, said. Bergman was 89….

I’m a New York Knicks fan, so I grit my teeth when I say, he’s one of the 3 or 4 greatest b’ball players ever. To compare Tillman to Audie Murphy is like comparing a HS benchwarmer to Jordan. Yes, they’re both basketball players, but that’s where the similarity ends. Tillman and Murphy were military men. That’s where the similarity ends.

In all this BS over Tillman, what is lost is that by claiming Tillman a hero the claimants are actually demeaning true heroes like Murphy, for the benchwarming HS kid did not excel at a high level, win championships and MVPs, etc. He did nothing extraordinary. He just sat on a bench, then died.

Murphy (or Jordan) did extraordinary things. Simply putting on a uniform and dying does not equate with (via Wikipedia) ‘destroying six tanks besides killing over 240 German soldiers and wounding and capturing many others.[4] By the end of World War II, he was a legend within the 3rd Infantry Division as a result of his heroism and battlefield leadership.[3] His principal U.S. decorations included the Medal of Honor, Distinguished Service Cross, two Silver Star Medals, the Legion of Merit, two Bronze Star Medals with Valor device, and three Purple Hearts (for the three wounds he received in combat). Murphy participated in campaigns in North Africa, Sicily, Italy, France and Germany, as denoted by his European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal with one silver battle star (denoting five campaigns), four bronze battle stars, plus a bronze arrowhead representing his two amphibious assault landings at Sicily and southern France.’

To not see that comparing the two is a dishonor to Murphy is downright silly.

Why doesn’t TMV do a feature on real Iraq War heroes- folk who saved the lives of other servicemen or Iraqi innocents? I thought blogs were now to do ‘reporting’ and not just be an echo chamber? Or is that too hard?

It may not find another Murphy, but surely one can do better than the Insta-Hero Tillman, whose noted accomplishments are, as another poster noted, he was ‘a somewhat famous (and rich) person.’

If not, then I guess Shaun and the others are too lazy to stop toeing the Bush party line: ‘A LOT MORE RESPECT THAN THOSE CHICKENHAWKS WHO DIDN’T RISK ANYTHING; BUT THINK THEY ARE HELPING THEIR NATION BY SMEARING FOLKS WHO WENT IN THE LINE OF FIRE!’

Don’t you love jingoism?

Really examine what you wrote there. It’s an incredible display of snobbery.

This is just an extension of the ‘every child is special’ nonsense.

The other meme is that all cops or firemen are heroes. Nonsense.

Although Wikipedia is a dubious source of information, at best, one cannot look at the respective Tillman and Murphy bios to see a yawning gulf in accomplishment.

Similarly, were all the 9/11 victims heroes? With 3k dead, just on a statistical average, there were 15-1800 adulterers, a few hundred tax cheats, a few hundred felons- including rapists, pedophiles and murderers, and assorted other bad guys.

A uniform- cop or military, does not make one a superhero, and dying is not heroic, in and of itself.

If one cannot even admit these truths, then there is little difference between the Bushco jingoism that Shaun loathes, and his own. Only the same tune, in different offkeys.

Does someone like Tillman (at left in photo with brother Pat)

They’re not both named Pat are they? I think the brother is Kevin.