To finish this off: MW, when your actions and deceits betray yourself, words are not necessary. And, mw, it’s funny, but I said the same thing, b4 it was removed.

The sad thing is that, unlike some other commenters here, you two cannot even lie well, and ball yourself up in knots. Anyone who’s ever known a Ranger, or a grunt who loathed one, knows reality; and that’s whether or not they agree on the Tillman issue.

But, keep spinning your lies. You need at least two for an echo chamber.

All I know of the Rangers comes from guys who were Rangers, and in other elite services of the Navt and Marines, and the grunts who loathed them for how their dickwaving machismo made the average grunts job of ‘winning hearts and minds’ so much harder.

Haha! Hilarity ensues. I seriously have to wonder if this isn’t some kind of joke you’re playing. No, I suppose it isn’t.

The blind acceptance of both as heroes has been my beef, and why you and others have and continue to distort.

*sigh* Yet again you attribute to me things I have never said.

I have nothing more to say – you’ve displayed your ignorance for all to see.

Entropy:

Again, reality check. Rangers are not GI Joe, grunting thru the desert or jungle of steppes. These are guys who are trained to do the worst possible things to the people who are enemies. These are the sorts who tell the GI Joes, ‘Stand aside, it’s time for a real man.’

To the average Joe, these guys are loathed for being arrogant pricks who look down upon GI Joes like the average CEO looks down upon the janitor of his building. These are the sorts that when they were fragged in Nam were cheered on by the Joes.

Now, you get a pretty boy celebrity who gives up millions of dollars and fame to stupidly go and play in this environment, rather than serving with the regulars- like a Ted Williams or a Jimmy Stewart did, and one cannot simply and deceptively state that stating that these guys are macho asses who are faux patriots is wrong. It simply gfoes against reality, history, and even the ways that they are viewed within the military. Sorry, and no attempt to try to turn the stating of what these guys do into some patriotic or heroic act will wash.

When we sent our CIA boys in to assassinate —– fill in the blank which world leader we got rid of in the last 6 decades, they were not being patriotic, nor were they doing anything anyone could call heroic.

Now, I’m willing to grant that the Ranger Rambo types are a step above the Underworld CIA Black Ops types, but this does not put them on an equal level with GI Joe Average.

Sorry. And I have seen about 12 minutes combined of Rambo movies. All I know of the Rangers comes from guys who were Rangers, and in other elite services of the Navt and Marines, and the grunts who loathed them for how their dickwaving machismo made the average grunts job of ‘winning hearts and minds’ so much harder.

So, don’t go presuming anything, even as you distort the history of the groups you have your banner waved under.

As for the mindsets that lead to Abu Ghraib and My Lai, it’s exactly because of the agitprop that Ranger types accept blindly that such occurs- even if they were not responsible for those two incidents. The Elites’ atrocities never make the news. Just as most Black Ops events did not.

Yes, Beaver Cleaver smiles broadly in your world, but it’s a world that never was.

And, let’s get something straight: You even admitted earlier that I was correct, and that Lynch and Tillman were not heroes. The coverups are just business as usual.

The blind acceptance of both as heroes has been my beef, and why you and others have and continue to distort.

Here is how your reply should have started:

‘Wow, you know, you are right. I guess it was my ADD that led me to read only selective parts of what yuo and others posted, so I naively assumed they were right about what you were saying. I’m sorry I assumed the wrong things. You were right all along. Pat Tillman is no hero. And thanks for mentioning Doolittle and Murphy. I’ll Google them and see what a real war hero is about.’

But, no, more puerility.

And again, ‘Why do you think Tillman generates so much news when ‘SSG Echols, SGT Acosta, SPC Mike, 1LT Prakesh’, and others do not?

Again, breathe and think.

Then, begin your next response with, ‘Gee, you know, you’re right again. In thinking about it, it’s obvious that the reason why Tillman was boostered and others not. And, in looking at the facts, he really did nothing special except give up millions of dollars. Damn, I’m just so caught up in the American myth machine that sometimes my fingers race ahead of my ideas. I’ll try to think before responding next time.’

If not. then you may as well go to the potty next to mw’s and ask him to pass the Dulcolax.

Let me make it simple for you. Had you stuck with the “Tillman” is not a hero argument, I wouldn’t have a problem. But you didn’t stop there. Why don’t we review, again, what you actually said near the beginning of this thread, the first in a series of comments that got me involved here in the first place:

As for Tillman- he’s the worst sort of faux patriot- as bad as Chickenhawk Bushco. He’s the John Wayne sort of, ‘Let’s gut us some sand-monkeys, Dude!’ killer.

Add to that the other aspersions and derogatory slanders you’ve cast here and on the blog post you wrote and linked to in this thread. You are slandering a dead man who served honorably, hero or not. But you go further than even that. You slander all those “like” him with the same broad, ignorant brush. Those slanders, and your obvious ignorance of the Rangers and the military, is the only reason I’m in this thread at all.

You didn’t know Tillman. You don’t know any Rangers. Your whole military experience comes from Rambo movies, and, apparently, your cousin and some limited interaction when you were a kid, which appears to be at least two decades ago. Somehow that has transformed you into an expert with the wisdom to judge people you don’t know in a profession you have no comprehension of. You are such the military expert that you make such stupid statements like the “mindsets” of people like the Rangers, people you don’t even know, “lead to Abu Ghraib or My Lai.” It’s despicable to make such comparisons when you obviously have no clue what you’re talking about.

THAT is my problem with you and has nothing to do with hero-worship or the crimes and coverups related to PFC Lynch and SPC Tillman – crimes in which both are innocent.

Here was my and this thread’s first comment: ‘Ugh! Still more on this non-hero? How many no-name kids have died since?’ Hardly a hijacking- merely a questioning of conventional wisdom.

Then came all the distorting of what a hero means, and all the intentional ignorance of all the others who served and died, while faux heroes like Tillman and Lynch got praised.

Then, of course, distortions and strawmanning, such as this: ‘somehow personally responsible for the lies of those in his chain-of-command going possibly all the way up the President.’

Now, you can disagree with my assertion that Tillman and Ranger types are nothing but brute killing machines who view war as a Rambo type game, but I never claimed what you state, so why state it. Because then you can fulminate over something that’s easier to grasp.

As for the Rangers and the Rambo persona- gimme a break. And all the Viet vets were heroes, even those who went wild and slaughtered wantonly. Again, you are the one buying into stereotypes. There is all manner of military men- just like cops. And yes, there are corrupt cops- despite the post-9/11 hagiography of the profession.

And as I had a cousin who served in the military, as well as relatives and friends, who served all around the military bases of New York and New Jersey, and I visited them as a kid, and knew many military folk from the Tillman types to the pathetic junkies who panhandled because the gov’t shafted them, don’t preach to me about not knowing the kinds of folk that serve, and in what capacity.

And, make sure you clean that flag you wrap yourself in- sweat stains are hard to get out.

‘I’ll even make it easy and give you a few names – why don’t you google up SSG Echols, SGT Acosta, SPC Mike, 1LT Prakesh. Those are just a handful.’

Great, then why isn’t this thread on them, and not a faux hero like Tillman? Are you this dense that you do not even realize that you have just conceded the argument to me? The fact that these names are not in lights- the way Tillman and Lynch are says alot.

Ok, now, before you type- think about that last point. Breathe, and think….for a change!

‘Tillman and Lynch may not be the heroes they were purported to be but they served and by all accounts, served honorably and upheld the oaths they took – and that is good enough for me.’

I agree- 100%. They may have served honorably, but neither were HEROES! And that was the only point I was making before the lies, distortions, and hyperbole occurred. Amazing how emotion blinds reason.

Yet, after all this, you are stating the obvious. I was right!

But, then you descend back into the little hole with lies: ‘Instead you insult them. You insult the dead. You insult their memories and their brothers and sisters on the battlefield today fulfilling their oaths the same as those who came before them. You are beneath contempt and you should be ashamed of yourself.’

Deceit is contemptuous, and perhaps once reason worms its way back into your cranium, you’ll see this. Not that I give a damn, because it’s your honor that is tarnished when you act in such a manner.
But, thanks again, for admitting, through the vitriol and lies, that I was right. That puts you one up on someone like mw. For what that’s worth!

It’s one thing to argue that Tillman was not a hero and that lies made in his name were wrong. It’s quite another to carry this further, as you have done, and denigrate him personally – as if HE, a f’ing dead man, is somehow personally responsible for the lies of those in his chain-of-command going possibly all the way up the President. Instead, you attack him and other honorably serving personnel as “mindless drones” and other such drivel – attacks that are so mindlessly ignorant as to be well beyond absurd. What is obvious is that you know nothing about Rangers, Tillman, Lynch or anything about military service. You compare them to Rambo – fictional character that you apparently believe is an accurate representation of them. It’s excusable to be ignorant of the real military, but it’s inexcusable to exploit that ignorance in the basest way possible as you have done here.

How is it in the 21st C. US Military, replete with minorities, the only 2 manufactured ‘heroes’ in this war are Jessica Lynch and Tillman- two blond Aryan types?

What, no Jose Rodriguezes or Jamal Andersons have done heroic deeds?‘

This demonstrates just how dishonest and ignorant you are. There are non-”Aryan” heroes if one would simply take the time to look instead disparaging those who wear the uniform. I’ll even make it easy and give you a few names – why don’t you google up SSG Echols, SGT Acosta, SPC Mike, 1LT Prakesh. Those are just a handful.

Tillman and Lynch may not be the heroes they were purported to be but they served and by all accounts, served honorably and upheld the oaths they took – and that is good enough for me. Instead you insult them. You insult the dead. You insult their memories and their brothers and sisters on the battlefield today fulfilling their oaths the same as those who came before them. You are beneath contempt and you should be ashamed of yourself.

What, no Jose Rodriguezes or Jamal Andersons have done heroic deeds?‘

When anyone can answer these q’s it’ll show some seriousness in dealing with this folly.

My link is relevant because the very reason for Joe’s post is because Tillman is, as others have stated, a manufactured hero- ala Lynch (again- where are the Hispanic and black heroes?).

Google Audie Murphy or Jimmy Doolittle for real war heroes.

I did not dishonor Tillman. This is yet again, more blatant online distortion. Defining what someone does, if it is not particularly noble, is not dishonoring. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps it is the squeamishness folk like you feel because the Pat Tillmans of the world exist that gives you the heeby-jeebies?

Reality check- I know this is difficult, but the USA has always employed drone-like killing machines to do their dirty work. The term Ugly American, in part, comes from guys like Tillman, as well as the corportate exploiters that profit from wars- think Bechtel, Halliburton.

So, instead of dealing with the reality of Tillman’s service, his non-heroic death by accident, or- since there’s a coverup, something more ridiculous or sinister, you and others avoid the conseqiences of why Tillman is even mentioned 3 years after death, while thousands of other Americans- some who truly did die heroically (if media reports are to be believed) are forgotten.

Again, why is a non-hero like Tillman appluded over so many others? Cuz he was a millionaire football player? Because he was a square-jawed GI Joe white poster boy?

So, you again, nicely avoided any real discussion of the absurdity of Tillman as hero, and the existence of this thread, and avoided a) the reality of the not too noble role Ranger types like Tillman play, b) the reality that he did nothing heroic c) the reality that many other far more deserving grunts should have been given some time while this non-hero is lauded, d) the reality that you have distorted the terms dishonoring with debunking myths, e) the reality that part of the Tillman hagiography has to do with his riches and fame, f) the reality that, ala Lynch, his race- and good looks, have a large part to do with this continuing obsession.

That’s 0 for 6, mw. In tennis, that’s game and set!

And your final comments show the depth of your ignorance and bile.

Great, Dick Cheney’s on the phone- he says your just the sort of ‘Patriot’ that the administration wants!

In the process of switching attention to yourself and your chosen topic in this thread, you 1) linked back to an incoherent three year old essay of yours on the subject of Tillman and your chronic constipation (at least I think that is what it was about) and 2) Dishonored Pat Tillman’s memory, attacked Pat Tillman’s character as well as broadly disparaging those who choose to serve as Rangers or other elite forces in the military. [Comments 1, 4, 6].

You then made the disingenuous and absurd denial that your comments dishonoring Tillman were not dishonoring Tillman and you demanded that other commenters “show me” (comment 12). Which became the third topic/argument in this thread.

I took the bait, and as you demanded, showed – using your words – that your arguments were wholly comprised of ad hominem attacks, juvenile name-calling, broad unsupported generalizations, inaccurate and offensive stereotypes (Comments 19,30). That third argument is now over. I showed you what you asked. You lost, I won. My job here is done.

So now you are switching back to argument/topic 2 – and your original threadjack.

Sorry, I’m just not interested in discussing whether Tillman is a hero with someone who demonstrated through his own ignorant and offensive comments, that he was not fit to shine Tillman’s shoes.

How is it in the 21st C. US Military, replete with minorities, the only 2 manufactured ‘heroes’ in this war are Jessica Lynch and Tillman- two blond Aryan types?

What, no Jose Rodriguezes or Jamal Andersons have done heroic deeds?

MW- Let’s make the analogy easy. Instead of being an Army Ranger, Tillman was a CIA operative specializing in murder and assassination. One day, while in Moscow, circa 1975, he and his partner are ordered to take out a Russian double agent. On their way to the hit, Tillman’s partner crashes their car, either because he was high or drunk. How are either men heroes?

Yes, I know in this PC world, even liberals and Leftists are afraid to be called unpatriotic for calling spades spades, but reality does not change because one lives guided by fears.

Davebo: Finally, someone unwittingly trips on the All-American rationale. All of those no-names I referred to before. They just gave up lives as plumbers or auto mechanics or middle managers, but Tillman gave up millions to play Rambo.

Yet, that still does nor define hero. Sorry. See the above analogy circa Moscow.

Rudi: Book smarts and real world smarts are 2 separate things. Case in point: Bill Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar- a bit more impressive than Tillman’s scores, eh?

Now- two words: Monica Lewinsky. Bye-bye any connection between book and real world smarts!

Still not a single person has stated a single heroic thing Tillman did- unless we consider giving up a million dollar NFL contract heroic.

To cosmos dumb jock meme from USU Today:

Tillman has always marched to his own beat. Upon entering Arizona State, he told coach Bruce Snyder that he was not redshirting, that he had a life to pursue after four years of college. He graduated in 3½ years with a degree in marketing and a 3.84 grade-point average.

cosmos – The average college student doesn’t graduate in 31/2 years with a 3.84 GPA. In 2004 both POTUS candidates couldn’t say they accomplished this in their undergraduate efforts. Our POTUS could even carry Tillman’s books, still wanna call him a Neanderthal jock? Sounds more like the old Detroit Lion Keith Dorney than a general studies non-grad.

Give up 4 million to ENLIST in the army despite the fact that you were eligable for OCS and then get back to us all about what constitutes a “hero” in your world, OK?

One wd have hoped that such misguided loyalty died with Stalin and Mao.