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	<title>Comments on: Jeff Jacoby on Isaac Newton</title>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92186</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:56:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92186</guid>
		<description>CS=
You&#039;re talking about science, scientists and society as if they were all the same thing..

It would be a better world if all people respected all other people, including scientists atheists, religious people, accountants and the other men on the street.

Science (the work)  can be concerned only wilth science, and  whether scientific  findings are considered respectful or hateful  can not be a consideration, if science is to remain unadulterated..

The word &#039;should&#039;  when used to talk of respect alarms me. In the sense that &#039;should&#039; is a recommendation, everything&#039;s fine.  In the sense, that people should feel obligated to respect certain people or ideas, it&#039;s not fine.  Forced respect is not respect any longer, it&#039;s mandated behavior.

Being fond of free choice, I claim the right to choose what or whom I respect.  I would wish the same freedom for sociery.  Recommendations are welcome. Mandates are not.


Wheatever.  I&#039;m done with the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CS=<br />
You&#8217;re talking about science, scientists and society as if they were all the same thing..</p>
<p>It would be a better world if all people respected all other people, including scientists atheists, religious people, accountants and the other men on the street.</p>
<p>Science (the work)  can be concerned only wilth science, and  whether scientific  findings are considered respectful or hateful  can not be a consideration, if science is to remain unadulterated..</p>
<p>The word &#8217;should&#8217;  when used to talk of respect alarms me. In the sense that &#8217;should&#8217; is a recommendation, everything&#8217;s fine.  In the sense, that people should feel obligated to respect certain people or ideas, it&#8217;s not fine.  Forced respect is not respect any longer, it&#8217;s mandated behavior.</p>
<p>Being fond of free choice, I claim the right to choose what or whom I respect.  I would wish the same freedom for sociery.  Recommendations are welcome. Mandates are not.</p>
<p>Wheatever.  I&#8217;m done with the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: C Stanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92146</link>
		<dc:creator>C Stanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92146</guid>
		<description>I guess your point of contention is one on which I can&#039;t agree with you. I absolutely think the relationship should be one of mutual respect. Religious believers shouldn&#039;t ask that their beliefs be given credence on matters that are correctly addressed by scientific thought, and vice versa. It&#039;s not just a matter of saying that an individual should be allowed to pursue his or her own beliefs, but on certain matters which are not addressable by science, society should respectfully consider religious viewpoints as they inform our understanding of human behavior and morality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess your point of contention is one on which I can&#8217;t agree with you. I absolutely think the relationship should be one of mutual respect. Religious believers shouldn&#8217;t ask that their beliefs be given credence on matters that are correctly addressed by scientific thought, and vice versa. It&#8217;s not just a matter of saying that an individual should be allowed to pursue his or her own beliefs, but on certain matters which are not addressable by science, society should respectfully consider religious viewpoints as they inform our understanding of human behavior and morality.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92140</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92140</guid>
		<description>CS=
 &quot;Where did I advocate using religion as a substitute for studying natural phenomena? &quot;
==
Where did I say that you did?

Your use of the word &#039;should&#039; (as I quoted). however,implies that the relationship between science and religion  &#039;should&#039;  be of  a certain kind.
I contend that there should be no &#039;should&#039; involved.

Other than that, which to me is important, we agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CS=<br />
 &#8220;Where did I advocate using religion as a substitute for studying natural phenomena? &#8221;<br />
==<br />
Where did I say that you did?</p>
<p>Your use of the word &#8217;should&#8217; (as I quoted). however,implies that the relationship between science and religion  &#8217;should&#8217;  be of  a certain kind.<br />
I contend that there should be no &#8217;should&#8217; involved.</p>
<p>Other than that, which to me is important, we agree.</p>
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		<title>By: C Stanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92129</link>
		<dc:creator>C Stanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92129</guid>
		<description>I have no idea what you are talking about, Doma.  Where did I advocate using religion as a substitute for studying natural phenomena? Things that are observable, measurable, etc, are the domain of science. Making pronouncements that either declare or imply things that go beyond the measurable though, is beyond the scope of science and that is where some are now treading. Likewise, people should refrain from using dogma or faith to ignore the measurable and observable facts about nature. If each type of thinking and analysis remains in its own domain, then there is no conflict.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no idea what you are talking about, Doma.  Where did I advocate using religion as a substitute for studying natural phenomena? Things that are observable, measurable, etc, are the domain of science. Making pronouncements that either declare or imply things that go beyond the measurable though, is beyond the scope of science and that is where some are now treading. Likewise, people should refrain from using dogma or faith to ignore the measurable and observable facts about nature. If each type of thinking and analysis remains in its own domain, then there is no conflict.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92086</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92086</guid>
		<description>&quot;science is the study of the physical world and religion is separate from that and the two should complement rather than conflict.&quot;
----
SHOULD complement  RATHER THAN conflict?  I don&#039;t think so.

Science, by definition, is the study of the natural world.  Start introducing elements of the spiritual or supernatural, and you&#039;ve strayed outside the realm of what science can properly address  Whether conflict between the two arises or not depends on the nature of scientific findings and religious beliefs.  When conflict does arise, there should be no question about which is which. The greatest leaps forward (tha nature of the solar system, etc.)
came about precisely because science stuck to its defined area of the physical world and refused to be polluted by religious beliefs.

An individual scientist, however, is more than his job.  He is perfectly free to delve into whatever areas interest him, be that art, religion, metaphysics, magic or puppetry.
When he goes to the lab or office, however, to do science, he must confine himself to the study of tha natural world.

Science and religion can compliment each other in a person, but not in science.  To suggest otherwise is to destroy the very nature of scientific inquiry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;science is the study of the physical world and religion is separate from that and the two should complement rather than conflict.&#8221;<br />
&#8212;-<br />
SHOULD complement  RATHER THAN conflict?  I don&#8217;t think so.</p>
<p>Science, by definition, is the study of the natural world.  Start introducing elements of the spiritual or supernatural, and you&#8217;ve strayed outside the realm of what science can properly address  Whether conflict between the two arises or not depends on the nature of scientific findings and religious beliefs.  When conflict does arise, there should be no question about which is which. The greatest leaps forward (tha nature of the solar system, etc.)<br />
came about precisely because science stuck to its defined area of the physical world and refused to be polluted by religious beliefs.</p>
<p>An individual scientist, however, is more than his job.  He is perfectly free to delve into whatever areas interest him, be that art, religion, metaphysics, magic or puppetry.<br />
When he goes to the lab or office, however, to do science, he must confine himself to the study of tha natural world.</p>
<p>Science and religion can compliment each other in a person, but not in science.  To suggest otherwise is to destroy the very nature of scientific inquiry.</p>
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		<title>By: C Stanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92072</link>
		<dc:creator>C Stanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92072</guid>
		<description>Jacoby&#039;s statements in his closing paragraph are just as relevant now as they were 300 years ago, though, Holly:&lt;blockquote&gt;To be sure, religious dogma can be a blindfold, blocking truths from those who refuse to see them. Scientific dogma can have the same effect. Neither faith nor reason can answer every question. As Newton knew, the surer path to wisdom is the one that has room for both.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yet most of the commenters seem to miss that point as they&#039;re caught up in trying to trivialize Newton&#039;s religious studies or disproving any claims that he was a &#039;fundamentalist&#039; (the definition of which could vary but it&#039;s really inconsequential to Jacoby&#039;s point: that science is the study of the physical world and religion is separate from that and the two should complement rather than conflict.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacoby&#8217;s statements in his closing paragraph are just as relevant now as they were 300 years ago, though, Holly:<br />
<blockquote>To be sure, religious dogma can be a blindfold, blocking truths from those who refuse to see them. Scientific dogma can have the same effect. Neither faith nor reason can answer every question. As Newton knew, the surer path to wisdom is the one that has room for both.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yet most of the commenters seem to miss that point as they&#8217;re caught up in trying to trivialize Newton&#8217;s religious studies or disproving any claims that he was a &#8216;fundamentalist&#8217; (the definition of which could vary but it&#8217;s really inconsequential to Jacoby&#8217;s point: that science is the study of the physical world and religion is separate from that and the two should complement rather than conflict.)</p>
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		<title>By: Lynx</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92065</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92065</guid>
		<description>Did you hear about the politician that had illegitimate children &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson#The_Sally_Hemings_controversy&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;with an unpaid servant&lt;/a&gt;?
Did you hear about the famous artist that had a relationship with &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelangelo#Relationships&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a sixteen year old boy&lt;/a&gt;?

Your personal beliefs, be they religious political or anything else, should have zero influence on your getting a job, as long as they don&#039;t interfere with your performance on the job. This is naturally more easily said than done. If I&#039;m interviewing 20 potential biologists, and I know that some of them claim to believe the literal story or creation, I will be much more inclined to hire the candidates that hold the concept of evolution in high regard, being central to biology. Of course, the likelyhood of finding very many creationist biologists is about that of an Issac Newton level scientist showing up at an interview wearing a clown suit, with spaghetti in his hair and praying five times daily to the God of Fluorescent Lights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you hear about the politician that had illegitimate children <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson#The_Sally_Hemings_controversy" rel="nofollow">with an unpaid servant</a>?<br />
Did you hear about the famous artist that had a relationship with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelangelo#Relationships" rel="nofollow">a sixteen year old boy</a>?</p>
<p>Your personal beliefs, be they religious political or anything else, should have zero influence on your getting a job, as long as they don&#8217;t interfere with your performance on the job. This is naturally more easily said than done. If I&#8217;m interviewing 20 potential biologists, and I know that some of them claim to believe the literal story or creation, I will be much more inclined to hire the candidates that hold the concept of evolution in high regard, being central to biology. Of course, the likelyhood of finding very many creationist biologists is about that of an Issac Newton level scientist showing up at an interview wearing a clown suit, with spaghetti in his hair and praying five times daily to the God of Fluorescent Lights.</p>
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		<title>By: j@ne futzinfarb</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92059</link>
		<dc:creator>j@ne futzinfarb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92059</guid>
		<description>I maintain that based on my experience if a prospective candidate for an academic position at a top-notch university had racked up objective accomplishments in â€œNatural Philosophyâ€ (what we now call physics) and mathematics comparable to Newton at an equivalent point in their career, the hiring committee would sign him on the spot if he were wearing a clown suit, had spaghetti in his hair and prayed five times daily to the God of Fluorescent Lights.  Newtonâ€™s accomplishments are nearly unfathomable.  Today we give slam-dunk Nobel prizes to folks who advance understanding in the ways Newton did and universities slaver over faculty with Nobel laureate potential to the extent that theyâ€™ll overlook all kinds of proclivities.  Just so weâ€™re clear, Michael Behe and William Dembski, for instance, are no Isaac Newtons.

But hereâ€™s the much more important thing to remember:  when Einstein (with the special and general theories of relativity) and Schrodinger/Heisenberg (with quantum mechanics) showed how Newton was WRONG, the scientific community recognized it, accepted it, and, wholesale, adopted the NEW understanding.  I wonder how that would have worked out for the worshippers at Our Chapel of Newtonâ€™s Principles?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I maintain that based on my experience if a prospective candidate for an academic position at a top-notch university had racked up objective accomplishments in â€œNatural Philosophyâ€ (what we now call physics) and mathematics comparable to Newton at an equivalent point in their career, the hiring committee would sign him on the spot if he were wearing a clown suit, had spaghetti in his hair and prayed five times daily to the God of Fluorescent Lights.  Newtonâ€™s accomplishments are nearly unfathomable.  Today we give slam-dunk Nobel prizes to folks who advance understanding in the ways Newton did and universities slaver over faculty with Nobel laureate potential to the extent that theyâ€™ll overlook all kinds of proclivities.  Just so weâ€™re clear, Michael Behe and William Dembski, for instance, are no Isaac Newtons.</p>
<p>But hereâ€™s the much more important thing to remember:  when Einstein (with the special and general theories of relativity) and Schrodinger/Heisenberg (with quantum mechanics) showed how Newton was WRONG, the scientific community recognized it, accepted it, and, wholesale, adopted the NEW understanding.  I wonder how that would have worked out for the worshippers at Our Chapel of Newtonâ€™s Principles?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Satterfield</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92032</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Satterfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92032</guid>
		<description>Well, the nature of a certain kind of fundamentalist is to have problems recognizing that the passage of centuries or even millenia can make a difference to lots of things. And frankly, I&#039;ve never been very impressed by anything of Jacoby&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the nature of a certain kind of fundamentalist is to have problems recognizing that the passage of centuries or even millenia can make a difference to lots of things. And frankly, I&#8217;ve never been very impressed by anything of Jacoby&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92030</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92030</guid>
		<description>We are talking about Isaac Newton the alchemist, right?
His science was based on observations of the natural world.
His perusals in the Bible were conducted in search of secret codes and hidden meanings.

It was simply alchemy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are talking about Isaac Newton the alchemist, right?<br />
His science was based on observations of the natural world.<br />
His perusals in the Bible were conducted in search of secret codes and hidden meanings.</p>
<p>It was simply alchemy.</p>
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		<title>By: outofcontext</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92019</link>
		<dc:creator>outofcontext</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92019</guid>
		<description>Fundamentalists don&#039;t like to point out that Newton was anti-trinitarian.  He spent a lot of time studying what he felt were adulterations in Bible texts, which led him to deny the presence of the Holy Trinity.  The fundamentalists of his time &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Historical_Account_of_Two_Notable_Corruptions_of_Scripture&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;were not too tolerant of his &lt;/a&gt;apostasy :  
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Newton did not publish these findings during his lifetime, likely due to the political climate. Those who wrote against the doctrine of the Trinity were subject to persecution in England. As late as 1698 the Act for the Suppression of Blasphemy and Profaneness made it an offense to deny one of the persons of the Trinity to be God, punishable with loss of office, employment and profit on the first occasion, and imprisonment for a repetition. Newton&#039;s friend William Whiston (translator of the works of Josephus) lost his professorship at Cambridge for this reason in 1711. In 1693 a pamphlet attacking the Trinity was burned by order of the House of Lords, and the next year its printer and author were prosecuted. In 1697 &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aikenhead&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Thomas Aikenhead&lt;/a&gt;, an eighteen-year-old student&lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?vid=0hT9BHmAZtnRJ-U6irn&amp;id=Ij9OLM576SUC&amp;pg=RA164-PA12&amp;lpg=RA164-PA12&amp;dq=%22thomas+Aikenhead%22#PPP14,M1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; charged with&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p290B.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;denying the Trinity&lt;/a&gt;, was hanged at Edinburgh, Scotland.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fundamentalists don&#8217;t like to point out that Newton was anti-trinitarian.  He spent a lot of time studying what he felt were adulterations in Bible texts, which led him to deny the presence of the Holy Trinity.  The fundamentalists of his time <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Historical_Account_of_Two_Notable_Corruptions_of_Scripture" rel="nofollow">were not too tolerant of his </a>apostasy :  </p>
<blockquote><p>
Newton did not publish these findings during his lifetime, likely due to the political climate. Those who wrote against the doctrine of the Trinity were subject to persecution in England. As late as 1698 the Act for the Suppression of Blasphemy and Profaneness made it an offense to deny one of the persons of the Trinity to be God, punishable with loss of office, employment and profit on the first occasion, and imprisonment for a repetition. Newton&#8217;s friend William Whiston (translator of the works of Josephus) lost his professorship at Cambridge for this reason in 1711. In 1693 a pamphlet attacking the Trinity was burned by order of the House of Lords, and the next year its printer and author were prosecuted. In 1697 <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aikenhead" rel="nofollow">Thomas Aikenhead</a>, an eighteen-year-old student<a href="http://books.google.com/books?vid=0hT9BHmAZtnRJ-U6irn&#038;id=Ij9OLM576SUC&#038;pg=RA164-PA12&#038;lpg=RA164-PA12&#038;dq=%22thomas+Aikenhead%22#PPP14,M1" rel="nofollow"> charged with</a> <a href="http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p290B.html" rel="nofollow">denying the Trinity</a>, was hanged at Edinburgh, Scotland.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: NitrogenNick</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92017</link>
		<dc:creator>NitrogenNick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92017</guid>
		<description>Isaac Newton&#039;s beliefs matched most closely with arianism, considered a heresy by virtually all Christian denominations because it denies the divinity of Jesus.

Sure sounds like a &quot;fundamentalist&quot; to me.  If Jacoby bothered to actually look at the kind of God Newton described, and not merely his use of the word &quot;God,&quot; he might have actually learned something about both science and religion.  Instead he&#039;s shown his ignorance of both.

Oh, and rather than bending over backwards to hire him, Cambridge would have thrown him out the door (as a matter of law at the time) if he had publicly revealed his beliefs.  I guess that reveals Jacoby&#039;s ignorance of history as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isaac Newton&#8217;s beliefs matched most closely with arianism, considered a heresy by virtually all Christian denominations because it denies the divinity of Jesus.</p>
<p>Sure sounds like a &#8220;fundamentalist&#8221; to me.  If Jacoby bothered to actually look at the kind of God Newton described, and not merely his use of the word &#8220;God,&#8221; he might have actually learned something about both science and religion.  Instead he&#8217;s shown his ignorance of both.</p>
<p>Oh, and rather than bending over backwards to hire him, Cambridge would have thrown him out the door (as a matter of law at the time) if he had publicly revealed his beliefs.  I guess that reveals Jacoby&#8217;s ignorance of history as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudi</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/comment-page-1/#comment-92006</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/religion/14190/jeff-jacoby-on-isaac-newton/#comment-92006</guid>
		<description>This thing about Newton has floated around the Internet for awhile now. It would be significant if Newton renounced his scientific works because they threatened his religious beliefs. Even today there are scientists who hold fundamentalist religious views. But these beliefs are opposite ends of thought, one is guided by faith the other by logic and reason. The danger is when people try to combine the two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This thing about Newton has floated around the Internet for awhile now. It would be significant if Newton renounced his scientific works because they threatened his religious beliefs. Even today there are scientists who hold fundamentalist religious views. But these beliefs are opposite ends of thought, one is guided by faith the other by logic and reason. The danger is when people try to combine the two.</p>
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