That’s how I see it also. Do conservatives that still support him believe that those principles have not been abandoned? Or do they feel obliged to defend him because they once supported him and his policies? Or because of purely partisan reasons? Surely they are capable of putting country ahead of party!

agreed, and drinking a non-alcholic beer is like a heroin addict shooting sugar water into his veins. The addiction is still there- it’s just sublimated,never addressed.He is not “recovering- and his addiction to failure is manifest in his reckless abandonment of the guiding principles of this country.
William Kristol is our Quisling.

Bill Cosby talked about a performer doing a show for a huge audience and most like him but there is “the face” that doesn’t.

All people who post here on TMV have a group of people that think that writer is brilliant, and another group that thinks the writer is clueless. One group thinks the writer is moderate an objective, the other inflammatory. It really is best to focus on the issue a writer raises — not the writer being too far right, too car left, too far center on a big issue.

I was on Ed Morrissey’s internet radio talk show last week, and he had very nice things to say about TMV because it offers people who have such DIFFERENT opinions. If I only had people who agree with me writing on TMV, I couldn’t have anyone write on TMV. I have my own world view.

We don’t want to run critiques of a comments policy that has been up here now for some 6 months. The posts aren’t written about comments policy or comment moderation but issues. We now have a comment moderator due to many complaints from TMV writers and readers.

If people stick to the issues raised in posts, there never is a problem. But when it moves towards people “screaming” at each other because they disagree, the issues really get lost. In an event, if we’ve deleted comments its comments that will not take what is MORE than a hint that we don’t want comments on comment moderation and comments. The blog is not about that at all but the issues we write about — all of us whether we do a post that is center, center right or center, whether we like George Bush or don’t. And we can’t just keep deleting posts that don’t take our warnings.

This mixture of opinions from right and left is what makes this site different from Kos or Powerline.

jdledell – you are so correct, and sometimes I do forget that fact.

In fact, as this site has become somewhat polarized (a natural reaction to current events, really), perhaps the name should be changed to The Angry Voice!

Your paper President post makes some valid arguments. I do believe that Bush has, in the end, turned out to be an incompetent leader, but I do not think he is evil, or malicious, nor devoid of some successes and positive values.

But as you said (in opposite), by the end of the first sentence of one of Shaun’s screeds, I am ready defend Bush to the death!

Perhaps I should follow Jason’s lead on not read Shaun’s posts, but, well, truth be know, I guess it fills some deep-seated, mental masochistic need of mine.

Also, great idea on the drink. I think a Pisco Sour and a dip in the pool is called for.

How is it the comment policy is only enforced when the poster is Jason or MvdG? Isn’t it supposed to be enforced with Shaun also?

kritter,

Don’t worry, I’ve been watching the thread. Nothing has been or is about to be edited or deleted. I almost posted an advisory this morning to remind people to focus on the issue and not the person, but upon re-reading the thread I found that the comments have focused on the arguments and words that people have used and has not yet crossed the line of labeling or attacking persons. Since we resolve doubt in favor of leaving the comments in, it seemed best to do nothing more than just continue monitoring the thread. Thus far, it appears that comments have been critical of Shaun’s tone, choice of words, and pattern of posts — the same sort of negative comments that were allowed to remain on threads authored by myself, MvdG, and others. None have yet crossed the line to attacking Shaun personally. Additionally, no one has sent me any email asking me to look at any comments. If personal attacks on Shaun do get posted in comments, they will receive the exact same treatment as personal attacks made against any other TMV contributor or commenter.

As for those who might object to material in Shaun’s posts, the comment policy binds all comments, but the content of posts is a matter for the contributors and the site ownership. As moderator, I don’t have input into what contributors like Shaun say. I personally prefer a very different style than Shaun uses, but it is not within my purview as moderator to assess posts on the same criteria as comments. For those who don’t like Shaun’s style or my style or any other contributor’s style, the best solution is just to not read or respond to those contributors’ posts who you find offensive if you can’t do so without becoming angry.

AustinRoth – LOL – I made almost the same comment to both Jason and MVDG, except I used Powerline and LGF as a comparision. There is something in their writing that gets my teeth clenched by the end of their first sentence. However, I decided it all depended on whose ox was getting gored. Jason and MVDG irritated me no end – Shaun doesn’t. For you it’s the reverse. So what – big deal.

If you want to counter his opinions do so, if not relax and have a drink instead. Shaun is not going to change his approach or opinions and neither are Jason and MVDG. This mixture of opinions from right and left is what makes this site different from Kos or Powerline.

Now, it is interesting you mentioned the stock market. If a Democratic President was presiding over such a long-term growth in the market, coupled with inflationary pressures under control, low unemployment, and 4 straight years of a lowering budget deficits (yes, that is correct), he would be hailed as an economic Messiah. But not Bush.

That ignores that real wages have frozen. Inflation, rising medical and education costs have eaten away at any gains. The gap between the rich and the poor is widening.

The economy is working, but only for the 1%ers. That’s why Bush is not being hailed as an economic messiah.

On Iraq, if he really believed in the surge and the need for time, he not only would be discussing it constantly with Congress but also trying to get world leaders and/or the UN to back him up.

On Israel/Palestine he came out yesterday with the same tired nostrums he articulated 5 years ago. He no longer is fighting for a continuation of his tax cuts and he is not even trying to find a solution to the AMT. Medicare and Social Security solutions are no longer on his radar screen.

In short, he is a Paper President – only providing the illusion of leadership.

jdledell – it is not that I am saying Shaun is bad, but that he is being disingenuous. He used inflammatory rhetoric, and then when it gets a rise from the audience, cries out that we are not willing to discuss, only snipe and argue.

Shaun – some of the points about whether he is indeed a ‘coward’ were addressed, but, as that is a subjective description, and given the ingrained opinions, I seriously doubt that anyone’s views will be changed.

But, what you see as an unwillingness to bend to negative current events, others see as sticking to a long-term goal in the face of adversity.

What you call his ‘cowardice’ others see as fortitude to not abandon Iraq to much worse chaos for short-term political gain.

Then, you criticize him in one paragraph for failing to be willing to follow a different path suggested by Senators Lugar and Warner, but in the next paragraph for making some adjustments.

You attack the current strategy for not achieving all the pre-set goals, but making 50% of the goals, and progress on 2 others, would normally be seen as a sign of progress, not failure. Rarely does any organization or large-scale effort achieve all goals immediately and in the first try.

Now, it is interesting you mentioned the stock market. If a Democratic President was presiding over such a long-term growth in the market, coupled with inflationary pressures under control, low unemployment, and 4 straight years of a lowering budget deficits (yes, that is correct), he would be hailed as an economic Messiah. But not Bush.

But again, it is your sniveling, condescending Kossite tone that sets me (and others) off. How can you possibly claim to be trying to do anything other than please the flame-throwing portion of Democratic base, and trying to enrage those on the Right (or even middle-Right) with phrases like:

a coward of staggering proportions

families whose sons and daughters have come home in flag-draped coffins since the commander in chief flipped another bird

steady drumbeat of lies and distortions

when his presidential bicycle still had training wheels

You have no interest in reasonable discourse, and your own words betray you.

He has used claims of executive priviledge and national security to put a smoke screen around the activities of OUR government. We don’t know our energy policy, we don’t know if Bush has only been wiretapping terrorists, we don’t have key documents and testimony from the White House in the attorney saga… the list goes on

I happen to agree with Shaun, but no one forces you to agree .
Bush has gone too far for redemption, and his failures have been spectacular (yet avoidable) ones that we will all be paying for in the foreseeable future. Most presidents screw up the first term, but learn to work with both sides in the second term, but not this one. If anything he has become more obstinant and intransigent.

jdledell nails it. I am sure that many people would be receptive to a point-by-rebuttal of my analyse of the president’s shortcomings. I certainly would.

He was AWOlL while Iraq descended into chaos – until the elections woke him up. That may have happened too late for remedial measures to be effective, however.

He is AWOL now, We could really use a courageous president giving us a no-spin assessment of the pros and cons of leaving vs committing long tem. There being large numbers of adults present, we could handle domplex issues and the straight talk necessary to present them.
He is AWOL on that score.

What we’ve had is a cardboard figure playing recorded messages about AQ-9/11 and purple fingers

I’m a forgiving person. Were he to show up for work to do his job, I’d be more than willing to let him. It looks to me, though, that this president will stay AWOL until someone else comes to do the job for him.

Bang! Bang! Another shot at the messenger rather than the message.

But Shaun, your ‘message’ isn’t an analysis of the shortcomings and failures of the Bush administration, nor a commentary on alternative solutions.

Rather, it is:

‘I HATE ChimpyBushHitlerHalliburtonMcSmirky-
CheneyRoveSockpuppetDrydrunkFratboy-
EvilRetardedBloodForOilFascist-
lslamophobicBiblethumpingJesusfreak-
WMDWarmongeringYellowcakeLiar’

That kind of makes you the message, frankly.

But you routinely feel the need to express your opinions in the most absolutely derogatory and inflammatory way possible.

… at a ridiculous frequency. The combination is pathological (diseased).

“Bush bad, Bush bad, Bush bad, Bush bad. [etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum]” We already have long understood the badly composed, too-frequently posted message.