You can email me at my website. Go to the contact page.

… if it spoils over into other threads, they will be edited / deleted.

You’ve got a deal Michael… your input and response to the concerns expressed here has been unvaluable.

‘I edited nothing. I only deleted my own comments on this thread.’

Big Brother LIVES, and he’s in Minnesota!

In my case, it was one word- holes.

That hardly is in league with the F or N word (and in dealing with adults I feel a bit ’silly’ to even have to use those euphemisms.

The very reason euphemisms and entendre exist is because of thin-skinned folk like Jason. That he is now ‘moderator’ is ridiculous, since, he’s the least moderate TMVer around.

Before bloga even started I used to have comments from emails that I would post on my site. Within a fe months I had to scrap that because people who knew each other (in real life) were posting obscenities and death threats, and I had several threats of lawsuits for libel on things I wrote (which were true, but unprovable- but in no way profane- they merely highlighted some bad personal actions by others), or which others wrote, and which I might have liability for. I consulted a lawyer, who was shocked- again, this is pre-blog (2001). He said take it all down and start from scratch. I did, to avoid lawsuits.

There simply are people who cannot disconnect themselves from their emotions, and actually get emotionally involved in these sorts of things. Jason, is an obvious example. I was reading a similar brouhaha at Dean’s World between him and Ali Eteraz. Dean is another emotional child.

Then, if you state that their actions are childish or wrong, you are attacking them. It’s silly. The truth is I know no one at TMV in person, only their online personae. I take NOTHING personally. I’m a rare thing- an ‘adult.’

But there are too many children. On the plus side, I just reviewed an advanced copy of Steven Pinker’s latest book, and the review will be online tomorrow. I’m interviewing him in September, and he spends a large portion of the book talking about euphemism and taboo language- a whole chapter on Carlin’s 7 words.

Here is a quote from Pinker:

‘While taboo language is an affront to common sensibilities, the phenomenon of taboo language is an affront to common sense. Excretion is an activity that every incarnate being must engage in daily, yet all the English words for it are indecent, juvenile, or clinical. The elegant lexicon of Anglo-Saxon monosyllables that give the English language its rhythmic vigor turns up empty-handed just when it comes to an activity that no one can avoid. Also conspicuous by its absence is a polite transitive verb for sex- a word that would fit into the frame Adam verbed Eve or Eve verbed Adam. The simple transitive verbs for sexual relations are either obscene or disrespectful, and the most common ones are among the seven words you can’t say on television.’

I’m actually gonna use this post as an example of what he writes about.

Go to http://books.monstersandcritics.com/ tomorrow, and I would say you should get Pinker’s book. He pisses everyone off because he’s a straight shooter who is not an extremist.

That Jason did what he did is like a child giving the finger and, again, saying, ‘What did I do?’

It’s up to adults to discipline people like that, and perhaps a few more dressing downs will shame Jason a bit.

Gee, shaming, isn’t that a forgotten virtue?

Still Michael and Jason chose to dance around what you and I are talking about. This is not about abuse of TMV policy… it’s about Jason censoring opposing opinions and covering his own butt.

Jason’s claim that:

I have deleted or edited comments merely because they disagreed with me is completely false. I have deleted three comments total, two for vulgarity and one as spam.

is patently false.

It was his choosing to “delete” of his own comments rather than reply and apologize for trying to strong arm David Schraub in David’s stoty, We Can’t Do It Alone, that broke this proverbial camels back.

Just read David’s comments 1 and 2 (ORIGINALLY comments 3 and 4); domajot’s comment 7; and, SteveK’s comment 5 to get a drift of how Jason was coming across and why he removed his own comments.

Had Jason acknowledged and addressed the concerns expressed by David Schraub (TMV front pager), domajot, and myself, in the posting I linked to above, OR his overzealous actions against cosmoetica comment this issue would not be what it has become.

I’m sorry that Joe, David, and others involved by this brouhaha haven’t chosen to comment.

when one is invited anywhere, it is incumbent upon the host to be fair and gracious.

Jason was not, and if he was not in my case, SteveK and others are likely going to have similar complaints about similar ungraciousness.

Let this exchange, however, stand as a reference point, so that in the future, when Jason again deletes a comment, people can know that SteveK and I , and a few others, were treated in this fashion before them.

DAN

On 7/3/07, Michael van der Galien wrote:

I really consider this to be a non-debate. Jason made a call – we, Joe and I, support Jason. Comments are not easily deleted, but there is a limit to what we can accept in a give thread. People have compared me to nazis for instance.

On 7/3/07, Joe Gandelman wrote:

I stand by what I said. I’m not going to get into an email byh email debate over this, really. We all know what discussion is that focuse on the issues. I do shows an have an OPTIONAL routine that is r rated with double entendres. They MUST say they want it or it doedsn’t go in. I’m no huge Lieberman fan (I was a huge fan and supporter of Lowell Weicker, who he defeated plus my mother met Lieberman years ago and has always said he was a real sour puss…I have other problems with him and the war surprisingly does NOT enter it with me). But debate over policies, his ideas, etc is one thing.

I think the commenting policy is crystal clear under the comments. We also do have the TMV mission statement which we all try to adhere to and again we may stray from time to time (I have) but we try to adhere to it.

There are a zillion and one ways to strongly differ with someone’s ideas in a post, or a policy or a newsmaker. I appreciate your dedication to your positiions and willingness to take the time to comment but I’m really not going to get into going over each comment. We posted the comment policy and we all sometimes slip in not catching it all the time and veering discussion back onto it. But that is our goal.

I think as I said that once all of us who read and write on blogs get into writing about the process of commenting we are far off track. Most assuredly with this administration doing what it clearly is now, unabashedly doing, there is a lot to write about without putting our energies into a debate over our debate

Another thing is: I really and digging myself out of some things (I JUST got my laptop back) and simply don’t have time to debate on the site or in emails about comments. Our comments policy is really what should be reflected in comments and if we all slip up once in a while, the nice thing about beling alive is we can (presumably) wake up the next day and do it right next time!

Consider a blog to be a house. If you visit someone’s house, there are certain rules you adhere to. You do say certain things, you do not say certain other things.

My q- I’m humanly inclined to believe the poster right and Jason wrong because of his being wrong- by his own words- in this case.

But, I cannot know since that post no longer exists.

See how quickly slopes get slippery.

And I have disclosed no personal things in these emails.

But, Jason- even with SteveK, wants to do ethically questionable things, then not have to stand in public for them.

He was wrong! Period. By his own words he damned himself.

The word ‘holes’ is not objectionable, unless you are a reactionary.

Again, is honesty too much to ask for?

Nor anyone else delete them.

SteveK is right to be concerned. TMV has become alot more authoritarian, and capricious, in the last month.

I’m willing to stand behind my words.

So should the posters.

I did not insult Jason. I called him on his deleterious actions, and, if you read the earlier email, admitted misreading.
It’s in black and white, from Jason: ‘In Dan’s case, his original comment was about how Senator Joe Lieberman supposedly put his tongue into “disgusting holes”, a reference to a sexual practice called “rimming” that involves the licking of the anus. I thought the comment grossly offensive, gratuitously vulgar, and unnecessary.’

In law, that’s an open and shut case. Jason could not comprehend entendre, and acted in the wrong. Not a four letter word in the bunch.

If you get it on cable in Europe, watch Judge Judy or The People’s Court. It’s a slam dunk.

DAN
- Hide quoted text -

On 7/3/07, Michael van der Galien wrote:

What a bunch of nonsense. We have a comment policy, if people cross the line, their comments can be deleted. Jason has every right to delete the comments he has deleted (only very few). We do not want vulgarity, nor cuss words at TMV. It’s not about disagreeing – you’re free to disagree – but you’re not free to insult the poster, etc.

I’m with Jason on this one

On 7/2/07, Joe Gandelman wrote:

DAN: I’ve made it very clear that I don’t want cuss words on the site. I think the only thing I would allow is a damn or a bitch. I know a blogger who writes kids books who stopped writing his blog because kids found it. My website is http://www.familyentertainer.com
If you or anyone talks to me I do use all kinds of language.
I know VARIOUS tmv coeditors have pulled or deleted parts of posts with swear words. If I saw a post that had one of them on tmv I’ve contacted the writer and asked them to remove the word.

***Exactly, which by Jason’s own admission, I did not violate. As an entertainer steeped in Vaudeville, you know the power of entendre, and that a woman in a see through blouse is sexier than a butt naked one. That’s why I phrased my comment on Lieberman as I did. Again, Jason even admits it in his text. I did not say ass, cunt, dick, twat, or any George Carlin words. Once or twice before you had edited a word or two of mine. I disagree with that, but I accept that as part of the terms of posting.
But again, by Jason’s own admission, he read into something the worst thing, and deprived others of being adult enough to make up their own minds.

Is that moderate?

I submit that Jason read into my comments the worst thing PRECISELY because I’ve disagreed with him in the past. And the other times I’ve seen deletions, they’ve been from others (of different POVs than my centrist one) that have burned his buns.
I think it’s reasonable to assume that had my comment been posted by a newby, Jason would not have even read it, literally.
Again, you are free to have your rules, and enforce them as you choose.
I did not even write to you the one or two times you removed a swear word, because you state that. Again, I did not swear, and Jason imbued, BY HIS OWN ADMISSION.
It’s that slippery slope, and a quick trigger finger that I object to, and why I ‘dragged you, as site owner in,
I CC’d Michael because in the 2 or 3 x I emailed jason re: M&C, after Michael said he wanted to write a review, I’ve gotten no reply, so figured my emails were wrong, and he cd fwd them.

If I’ve missed one, its because of that…missing it.
If i’ve seen swear words or over the line comments — due to my travel and shnow schedule I have no time to read comments and barely ehough to keep up with my blog and my backlog (as you know on books) of posts — I’ve taken a different approach than others.

I’ve gone in and removed the words.
Now, I know this isn’t for everyone, but I want tmv to be famliy friendly in terms of the languag.e

On comments in general: I think when things get ugly all sides need to pull back.
There is NO post where anyone is justified in going ont he personal attack. People can and do discuss issues without it shifting frmo the issue to the person who raised the issue or the person responding to it.

I have not even see the comments today. I just got in and am leaving in 1 minute to drive 40 minutes to my next show. So this isn’t aimed at anyone.

My advice would be for everyone to a)forget personalities and focus ont the issues at hand. God knows there is enough going on now that we can and should be writing abouit — -and clamoring about — rather then get sucked into the mistake that blogs, bloggers and commenters do allt he time of turning the process of blogging and comments and people who write them into the actualy subject.

So I have a different take on this. I know everyone is smart enough to offer their best thoughts on issues without it violating our posting guidelines.

But I don’t want any four letter words…nothing on tmv that I coulid not say in a family show at a fair. You might occasionally see something pg or slightly r, but I’ll leave that to other sites and if tmv losese readers because we’re just not allowing it, I guess it’ll have to lose readers.

my show website is http://www.familyentertainer.com

My feeling is tmv should not be a site that I am ashamed of it a kid or parent or corporate client looks at it. They may hate what I write, but they won’t feel it’s an x rated site or the kind of site that you see often on the left or right. And, yes, those sites have more hits then me…and I wish them well.

The issue should not be the blogging, the comments the policy. Today the issue should be the scooter libby decision. And evne though I have a show and am very sick tonight I will come back and write about it — and won’t look at comments because I have to pick and choose and I think the choice for our energies should be the issue discussion and not each other. If I didn’t feel that way, I couldn’t have cobloggerse on tmv because most are to the right or left of me on issues

Thanks for the reply. Last time- by Jason’s own admission I used no swear words. He imbued it all, and that is HIS fault, not mine, although my comments suffered for his intellectual, ethical, and personal limitations.

BTW- that is my view, and not an attack. DAN

Interpolated:

On 7/2/07, Jason Steck wrote:

Dan’s charge that I have deleted or edited comments merely because they disagreed with me is completely false. I have deleted three comments total, two for vulgarity and one as spam. I have edited two others to remove vulgarity. In all cases, I have cone out of my way to invite the posters to resubmit their comment without the vulgar reference. Whenever time zones allow, as Michael will attest, I have checked my actions with him to get a “second opinion”.

In Dan’s case, his original comment was about how Senator Joe Lieberman supposedly put his tongue into “disgusting holes”, a reference to a sexual practice called “rimming” that involves the licking of the anus. I thought the comment grossly offensive, gratuitously vulgar, and unnecessary. I deleted it and invited Dan to resubmit the comment in a non-vulgar form. When he did so, I left it intact, even though it was quite scathing towards me personally.

***You have provided an ample example of imbuement. You have assumed the disgusting holes to be sexual or scatological. Indeed, that may be an interpretation. But, had I wanted to solely state a sexual act I would have. The term is called entendre. It’s something polite adults do when in the presence of children. Look in a mirror.
This is what I mean by taste, intellect, and other personal biases coming in to play when one is censored. I can just imagine how Oscar Wilde would have fared with you, Jason.

I am, in fact, no where near the immature young “Stalinist” that Dan has mentally constructed. While I have been known to get passionate, angry, and even unnecessarily touchy on comment threads (something I keep trying to learn not to let bother me), I absolutely separate moderator functions from advocacy functions. I’ve been able to learn to separate moderating from arguing while doing moderator functions in online forums for the last 20 years, going back to the pre-internet dialup network Fidonet and, before that, running dialup BBSes in Japan. (Obviously, I am quite a bit older than Dan thought. :+) )

***I was speaking of mental/emotional age, not chronological.

Dan, as I said on the forum, you and every other commenter are free to disagree with me or anyone else without any fear of having comments deleted for it. This is proven by the continued presence of dozens of comments that disagree, often violently, with pretty much everything I say. These disagreeable comments come in daily from both left (whenever I post about Iraq) and right (whenever I post about immigration). Your accusation that I am a censor is demonstrably and completely false.

***You have just proven that not so. You deleted an entendre, something that can be construed many ways, but which you, with a puerile mindset, took the wrong way. THAT is the point, insofar as the comment.
No one denies your right, granted by the site’s owner, to censor. But THAT is what you are doing.
And, since you delete things, there is no way to know that you have not similarly deleted comments that were offensive only to you, as well.
Regardless, it’s a de facto cession of the point, and often the argument, because it’s taking the bricks and not letting others play.
There have been blatantly anti-Semitic and other comments left to stand on TMV, and well so. Let their commenters’ have to deal with it.
I’m perfectly willing to let others think what they will of my entendre. You’ve only demonstrated Minnesota Nice kills its own, yet again!

I do wish you had taken the opportunity to discuss this with me before trying to drag Joe or Michael into this. I’m willing to discuss your concerns if you have them and hope for a more productive and cordial relationship in the future. If you have an actual incident where you feel I have failed to keep moderator and commenter functions separate, I’m willing to listen to those concerns and try to come to a reasonable accommodation. But I ultimately have to make a decision and I genuinely think that your reference to “rimming” was well over the line.

***I do wish you had taken the opportunity to ask exactly what I meant, without assuming the worst, before deleting my comment.
This is the point, and even though I intellectually understand people like you, I find it amazing how you delimit your world. It’s like the argument I have had with others who vote D or R and then whine that nothing changes. You ASSUME the worst, impugn your misassumptions on others, take drastic action, then shrug your shoulders with a ‘What did I do?’ smirk, and cry that you are being attacked, when the worst I’ve called you is a censor, for censoring.
At least stand up and be proud.
If you really believe what you fell, say, on TMV, ‘I am sick and tired of getting bested by some commenters, and when they say things that make me nervous I’m gonna be the reactionary.’

Is honesty too much to ask for? DAN

put my portrait of Stalin in storage during spring cleaning, and left my copy of Marx at the beach

What about the Che Guevara T-shirts?