Comments on: The Summer of Our Discontent http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/ An Internet hub with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, indies, centrists, moderates, and right Wed, 15 Feb 2012 04:43:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: C Stanley http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-87077 C Stanley Sat, 23 Jun 2007 13:43:59 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-87077 I completely disagree with your argument there, Jim, and in order to accept it you'd have to say that the Democrats don't care about the threat of terrorism when they complain about the GOP fearmongering on that issue. An accusaion of fearmongering doesn't mean that you don't think there is some real problem there, it means that you resent the way a group is using the issue to polarize people. It means that instead of offering a positive solution or methodology to deal with the problem, the group is focused on saying that their opponents won't be willing or able to handle the problem. It's a diversionary tactic, to keep people focused on the emotional reaction to the problem and saying that you care deeply about it, so that they don't notice that you never really offered any way of dealing with it that stands up to logic either. I completely disagree with your argument there, Jim, and in order to accept it you’d have to say that the Democrats don’t care about the threat of terrorism when they complain about the GOP fearmongering on that issue. An accusaion of fearmongering doesn’t mean that you don’t think there is some real problem there, it means that you resent the way a group is using the issue to polarize people. It means that instead of offering a positive solution or methodology to deal with the problem, the group is focused on saying that their opponents won’t be willing or able to handle the problem. It’s a diversionary tactic, to keep people focused on the emotional reaction to the problem and saying that you care deeply about it, so that they don’t notice that you never really offered any way of dealing with it that stands up to logic either.

]]> By: Jim Satterfield http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-87034 Jim Satterfield Sat, 23 Jun 2007 01:03:07 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-87034 CS, You said <blockquote>Since that tactic won some elections, the Democrats then chose their own fearmongering issues and began convincing us that we’re doomed to destroy the planet unless we choose drastic measures that may or may not avert disaster (but we have to do something!), and that our economy only appears to be good but most Americans aren’t reaping the benefits and can’t afford healthcare.</blockquote> To claim that someone is fearmongering on an issue in that manner is most certainly to imply that the problem doesn't exist. It's only after that is pointed out that you then say that isn't what you meant. CS,

You said

Since that tactic won some elections, the Democrats then chose their own fearmongering issues and began convincing us that we’re doomed to destroy the planet unless we choose drastic measures that may or may not avert disaster (but we have to do something!), and that our economy only appears to be good but most Americans aren’t reaping the benefits and can’t afford healthcare.

To claim that someone is fearmongering on an issue in that manner is most certainly to imply that the problem doesn’t exist. It’s only after that is pointed out that you then say that isn’t what you meant.

]]> By: C Stanley http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-86939 C Stanley Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:08:33 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-86939 OK, Jim, I'll concede those points as soon as you find the quotes from me where I've said what you claim I've said. Have fun with your search! Meanwhile, I'll summarize my actual positions on the issues you mentioned: 1. GW- definitely a warming trend, maybe not as precipitous as some are claiming. AGW- probably. Carbon driven? I don't know, and I'd like to see that we know that carbon reduction at the levels that are possible would really have an effect before we decide to derail the economy and halt development in third world countries, and before we invest in this one solution when there might be better ones that have nothing to do with CO2. 2. Healthcare. Definitely problems with our current system, mainly because we want the best and we want it for everyone but we don't want to (and can't) pay for it. I'd like to see a broad based proposal that addresses costs, asks people to make tough decisions instead of pretending that the govt can wave a magic wand of "universal coverage". Some suggestions would be to separate insurance from employment (thus making it possible for many more people to purchase their own insurance with pre-tax dollars), revamp the way we provide healthcare by allowing access to preventative care instead of just emergency care for the indigent, increase the supply of physicians and increase the type of procedures that can be performed by physicians assts and nurses; tort reform to reduce malpractice insurance costs. OK, Jim, I’ll concede those points as soon as you find the quotes from me where I’ve said what you claim I’ve said. Have fun with your search!

Meanwhile, I’ll summarize my actual positions on the issues you mentioned:
1. GW- definitely a warming trend, maybe not as precipitous as some are claiming. AGW- probably. Carbon driven? I don’t know, and I’d like to see that we know that carbon reduction at the levels that are possible would really have an effect before we decide to derail the economy and halt development in third world countries, and before we invest in this one solution when there might be better ones that have nothing to do with CO2.
2. Healthcare. Definitely problems with our current system, mainly because we want the best and we want it for everyone but we don’t want to (and can’t) pay for it. I’d like to see a broad based proposal that addresses costs, asks people to make tough decisions instead of pretending that the govt can wave a magic wand of “universal coverage”. Some suggestions would be to separate insurance from employment (thus making it possible for many more people to purchase their own insurance with pre-tax dollars), revamp the way we provide healthcare by allowing access to preventative care instead of just emergency care for the indigent, increase the supply of physicians and increase the type of procedures that can be performed by physicians assts and nurses; tort reform to reduce malpractice insurance costs.

]]> By: Jim Satterfield http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-86903 Jim Satterfield Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:17:23 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-86903 But, CS, you constantly claim we have no problems to blame on the other party. There is no global warming that people influence, there's nothing wrong with the existing health care system, etc. So why do you say now that we need solutions? Like to admit it or not, you've followed the Republican talking point of "Don't worry, be happy!". Then you accuse Kim of following Democratic talking points. Pot, meet kettle. But, CS, you constantly claim we have no problems to blame on the other party. There is no global warming that people influence, there’s nothing wrong with the existing health care system, etc. So why do you say now that we need solutions? Like to admit it or not, you’ve followed the Republican talking point of “Don’t worry, be happy!”. Then you accuse Kim of following Democratic talking points. Pot, meet kettle.

]]> By: C Stanley http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-86883 C Stanley Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:41:48 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-86883 Well, Kim, I can see that you aren't persuaded by my argument that we shouldn't allow the parties to portray problems as though they are mainly caused by the opposing party- since you've just quoted all of the Democratic party's talking points which do exactly that! If that's what gets you through the day, I guess- but I'll wait in hope that a leader comes forward to unite people toward positive solutions instead of demonizing opponents. Well, Kim, I can see that you aren’t persuaded by my argument that we shouldn’t allow the parties to portray problems as though they are mainly caused by the opposing party- since you’ve just quoted all of the Democratic party’s talking points which do exactly that!

If that’s what gets you through the day, I guess- but I’ll wait in hope that a leader comes forward to unite people toward positive solutions instead of demonizing opponents.

]]> By: kimrit http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-86878 kimrit Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:52:53 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-86878 CS- Well, given the choice to spend my tax dollars on the massive and inefficient Dept of Homeland Security and on a myriad of weapons systems that either don't work, aren't ready yet or aren't needed, or helping to insure the uninsured and fight looming inequality, its an easy choice. I believe the low ratings are due to Congress's gridlock, not due to these initiatives which most Americans support. Most supported increasing the minimum wage, cutting interest rates for student loans and using federal funds to pay for embryonic stem cell research- all of which the GOP has blocked or tried to block. The Democrats also voted in better benefits for vets after the Walter Reed scandal. But they haven't been able to do anything about Iraq or get many of their domestic initiatives through due to the obstruction of the GOP. It depends on whether you think government should work for the benefit of a few or the many. Right now we have a government that preserves business interests at the expense of consumers. Recent SCOTUS decisions all follow that pattern. CS- Well, given the choice to spend my tax dollars on the massive and inefficient Dept of Homeland Security and on a myriad of weapons systems that either don’t work, aren’t ready yet or aren’t needed, or helping to insure the uninsured and fight looming inequality, its an easy choice.

I believe the low ratings are due to Congress’s gridlock, not due to these initiatives which most Americans support. Most supported increasing the minimum wage, cutting interest rates for student loans and using federal funds to pay for embryonic stem cell research- all of which the GOP has blocked or tried to block. The Democrats also voted in better benefits for vets after the Walter Reed scandal. But they haven’t been able to do anything about Iraq or get many of their domestic initiatives through due to the obstruction of the GOP.
It depends on whether you think government should work for the benefit of a few or the many. Right now we have a government that
preserves business interests at the expense of consumers. Recent SCOTUS decisions all follow that pattern.

]]> By: C Stanley http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-86870 C Stanley Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:10:24 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-86870 Sour mood? Gee, I don't know, but maybe it has something to do with the fact that we've been manipulated by both political parties? For six years the GOP has worked to convince us that there are terrorists around every corner (along with Democrats who don't take the terrorists seriously). Since that tactic won some elections, the Democrats then chose their own fearmongering issues and began convincing us that we're doomed to destroy the planet unless we choose drastic measures that may or may not avert disaster (but we have to do something!), and that our economy only appears to be good but most Americans aren't reaping the benefits and can't afford healthcare. And instead of focusing on solutions that unite the country to solve the serious problems, we've been told to focus on how the other party is obstructing progress. Can't imagine why we're depressed. Sour mood? Gee, I don’t know, but maybe it has something to do with the fact that we’ve been manipulated by both political parties?

For six years the GOP has worked to convince us that there are terrorists around every corner (along with Democrats who don’t take the terrorists seriously).

Since that tactic won some elections, the Democrats then chose their own fearmongering issues and began convincing us that we’re doomed to destroy the planet unless we choose drastic measures that may or may not avert disaster (but we have to do something!), and that our economy only appears to be good but most Americans aren’t reaping the benefits and can’t afford healthcare.

And instead of focusing on solutions that unite the country to solve the serious problems, we’ve been told to focus on how the other party is obstructing progress.

Can’t imagine why we’re depressed.

]]> By: clt510 http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-86859 clt510 Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:34:20 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-86859 I think there are really three factors that are pushing Democratic approval to such a low: 1) Lack of ethics reform 2) Mishandling of immigration reform (<a href="http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1328" rel="nofollow">just 3% approve of their handling of immigration</a>) 3) Lack of any real legislative progress this session (one? successful, meaningful law passed) I also think that their lack of unity vise a vi Iraq is not helping them either. The approach they've taken has pretty much given everybody a reason to hate them. I really don't think the Democrats in Congress can blame anybody but themselves for this one. I think there are really three factors that are pushing Democratic approval to such a low:

1) Lack of ethics reform
2) Mishandling of immigration reform (just 3% approve of their handling of immigration)
3) Lack of any real legislative progress this session (one? successful, meaningful law passed)

I also think that their lack of unity vise a vi Iraq is not helping them either. The approach they’ve taken has pretty much given everybody a reason to hate them.

I really don’t think the Democrats in Congress can blame anybody but themselves for this one.

]]> By: DLS http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-86857 DLS Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:09:32 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-86857 If you observe, Americans are hardly outraged about anything, just burned out over Iraq and the Bush administration. We are likely to vote in a way similar to the 2006 election. But it depends on whom the Democrats and the Republicans field. There is nobody running for President that would be our great savior, nor is a savior wanted by normal people in this country anyway. If you observe, Americans are hardly outraged about anything, just burned out over Iraq and the Bush administration. We are likely to vote in a way similar to the 2006 election. But it depends on whom the Democrats and the Republicans field.

There is nobody running for President that would be our great savior, nor is a savior wanted by normal people in this country anyway.

]]> By: Jim Satterfield http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-86855 Jim Satterfield Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:00:09 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-86855 Anxiety comes not so much from the war, but economics. All of those numbers don't reflect what is really happening to people. While the core inflation numbers that guide policy like to exclude volatile energy and food prices, they still affect middle and lower income people greatly. In addition if there is one lesson that has been taught to the average working American over the last couple of decades you can work hard, play it straight and do everything that is supposed to keep you doing well in this country and incompetent management can cause you to be fired while they get rewarded. People don't like a feeling of insecurity. They fear for themselves and their families. It's one of those weaknesses of employer based health care systems as well. Anxiety comes not so much from the war, but economics. All of those numbers don’t reflect what is really happening to people. While the core inflation numbers that guide policy like to exclude volatile energy and food prices, they still affect middle and lower income people greatly. In addition if there is one lesson that has been taught to the average working American over the last couple of decades you can work hard, play it straight and do everything that is supposed to keep you doing well in this country and incompetent management can cause you to be fired while they get rewarded. People don’t like a feeling of insecurity. They fear for themselves and their families. It’s one of those weaknesses of employer based health care systems as well.

]]> By: kimrit http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-86832 kimrit Fri, 22 Jun 2007 01:48:33 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-86832 The immigration issue has damaged Republicans by splitting the party. Talk radio has done a good job of turning conservatives against the pending legislation-no matter how punitive it is on the illegals. I think most of their listeners are now adamantly opposed- whether or not its even rational to oppose it. They have begun to eat their own---attacking Bush, McCain and Trent Lott, the same way they have been attacking Ted Kennedy. My prediction is the bill won't survive, and the party will remain split over it. The immigration issue has damaged Republicans by splitting the party. Talk radio has done a good job of turning conservatives against the pending legislation-no matter how punitive it is on the illegals. I think most of their listeners are now adamantly opposed- whether or not its even rational to oppose it.

They have begun to eat their own—attacking Bush, McCain and Trent Lott, the same way they have been attacking Ted Kennedy. My prediction is the bill won’t survive, and the party will remain split over it.

]]> By: George Sorwell http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-86782 George Sorwell Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:08:04 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-86782 "and, since politicians started yapping about it, immigration" Is it possible that the immigration issue is damaging Republicans, not helping them? “and, since politicians started yapping about it, immigration”

Is it possible that the immigration issue is damaging Republicans, not helping them?

]]> By: Jason Steck http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-86774 Jason Steck Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:57:23 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-86774 With his Reagan-esque tone and style, Thompson might be far better positioned than Romney, especially since Thompson can leverage his acting personae as well. With his Reagan-esque tone and style, Thompson might be far better positioned than Romney, especially since Thompson can leverage his acting personae as well.

]]> By: Mike P. http://themoderatevoice.com/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/comment-page-1/#comment-86772 Mike P. Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:39:24 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/media/blogging/13632/the-summer-of-our-discontent/#comment-86772 I've been thinking of exactly that idea lately. It seems to me that as the campaigns stand at this moment, Obama is the obvious best bet for capturing that zeigeist for the Dems. Hillary would like to, but hasn't really begun to pull it off. On the Republican side, Romney is easily the guy best positioned. I’ve been thinking of exactly that idea lately. It seems to me that as the campaigns stand at this moment, Obama is the obvious best bet for capturing that zeigeist for the Dems. Hillary would like to, but hasn’t really begun to pull it off.

On the Republican side, Romney is easily the guy best positioned.

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