West Bank First
Jules Crittenden hits the nail right on its head:
Unabashed, unrepentant terrorist Hamas, still bent on destroying Israel, vs. corrupt, ineffectual ostensibly repentant terrorism-enabling Fatah, which allowed this state of affairs to develop. The Palestinians, having divided, were in the process of conquering themselves. Not surprisingly, utter murderousness trumped weaseling deception, and Hamas emerged the victor. But like everything else in the Middle East, it’s never that simple. Hamas’ victory almost immediately was revealed to be a disaster, Fatah’s rout an opportunity…
There is talk of concessions, a “West Bank first†initiative to reward Fatah, somewhat prematurely, before it has shown any maturity as a political entity itself. It is up to those who hold the pursestrings — Israel and the west — to quietly ensure that Fatah behaves responsibly. Palestinian peace and reconciliation may well be possible, if the criminal organization that is Hamas agrees to disarm, disband and disavow the destruction of Israel. Anything less will require a measured and reasonable response: the withholding of all cash, and the destruction of Hamas in Gaza by Israel.
The terrorist masters of Hamas, with their exuberant outburst of murder last week, have taken themselves hostage. This is no time to give in to terrorist demands. As we’ve learned, that only encourages them. If they will not release themselves, there is nothing we can do for them. If Hamas is bent on destroying itself, we shouldn’t try to stop them. If Fatah wants to lead the Palestinians, it will need to show it is capable of doing so.
I believe that this is an opportunity for the West and Israel to completely isolate Hamas, while at the same time helping the Palestinians in the West Bank. We must invest bigtime in the West Bank (and Abbas). Of course, our help should not be free: Abbas has to give us something in return. This means that he will have to fight terrorism actively; the PA TV should stop worshipping terrorists; schoolbooks should not contain any anti-Semitic propaganda; Abbas must use the money he gets to improve the lives of the West Bankers, etc.
24 Responses to “West Bank First”
Michael – Where do I start in demolishing this tripe. My guess is you and Jules don’t know any Palestinians. If you did, you would realize these prescriptions are worthless. There will be NO progress in the West Bank with or without Fatah/Abbas until Israel gives the signal that they are ready for a GENUINE peace.
Sure they can let Fatah have some money and some infrastructure will be rebuilt but that is NOT what any Palestinian wants. They want a free viable state and don’t give a shit about anything else. Israel is NOT willing to give up the West Bank settlements no matter what words Olmert uses. Do you understand that. The Palestinians sure do. Olmert promised Bush and made public announcements that settlement expansion would be frozen in 2004. They have not been frozen and they are expanding like crazy. Go see for yourself!!!!!!!
You think the Palestinians don’t have eyes? Even if they didn’t, the IDF “reminds” Palestinians at every checkpoint that they should get used to this because soon they will all be confined to “reservations”. They are constantly reminded by word and deed that Israel can do anything it damn well pleases to them and their impotence brings shame.
If you think Palestinian textbooks and speeches are the only hatred being spewed in the Levant, you have obviously never been to an Israeli school or a West Bank settlement/synogogue. Israeli textbooks show the entire area as Israel. When the Israel Education Minister timidly suggested showing the green line in the textbooks she was almost hounded out of office. I hear rabbis talking about the extermination of Palestinians – death is almost too good for those “animals”. Do I hear you or Jules calling for changes in Israel’s books and rhetoric. No – of course not. It makes you both feel better to blame everything on those “____________”.
You both say Hamas has to recognize Israel in order for peace talks to begin. Can you tell me when Israel recognized Palestine? The answer is never in any official sense. The “recognition” is all in very vague terms like 2 states for 2 peoples. That is equivelent to Hamas recognizing “the reality of the entity called Israel” as Haniyeh has stated.
Neither you, Jules, Bush or Olmert understand the Palestinians. If you did, you would realize that isolating Hamas and trying to bolster Abbas will just make more and more Palestinians hate Abbas as a quisling and even West Bankers will embrace Hamas. What the Palestinians NEED is more dignity and respect for them as a people and their need for their own state. You cannot imagine what the settlement enterprise has done to the Palestinian psych. It’s been devastating to their economy as well their sense of justice and fairness. Please remember that the settlement enterprise took hold when the Palestinians were totally docile. Most of the settlements took hold during the period 1967 to 1987 when the Palestinians didn’t throw so much as one rock. During this period when Palestinians approached Israel with a request for their own autonomous territory or state they were greeted with a giant F— YOU by Israel. That’s what led to the first infitada in 1987.
Reading your posting this morning made me so mad I started shaking. Don’t try to plead about the Camp David summit being a genuine offer by Israel. It was not and I have commented many times on why it was such a injust offer that even this Jew could not swallow it.
The Israeli/Palestinian problem is immensely complicated with enough fault on both sides to fill an ocean. Continuing with your one sided analysis is not only flat wrong but counter-productive to solving the problem.
As I’ve said to you before, jd, a personal relationship with an issue is in no way a prerequisite for expressing an opinion about it.
I think it is really wrong of you to attribute to Michael a highly inflammatory quotation of words he never actually wrote. Please refer to #5 in the comments policy below and avoid using such abusive tactics in the future.
I have edited your comment to remove vulgarity. Nothing else was changed at this time, this is only a warning.
Based on your other comments, I know that even while I disagree with it, your perspective on this issue is rich and well-developed. I know that you can express it without using abusive techniques or vulgar language.
Jason, I will edit his comment to take that out. My girlfriend is Muslim, she does not have to use idiocy like that.
Does not have to read idiocy like that I mean.
Michael,
Put yourself in their shoes.
Let me use a few of your boogeymen to create an analogy for you.
Iran has invaded the Netherlands with the financial backing of Germany. You as well as your friends and family have been forced to leave your homes and move to a shanty town in Rotterdam.
Rotterdam, a city that was home to 500,000 people is now home to more than 1.5 million. The shanty towns themselves are walled in, you have to pass through Iranian military checkpoints to get to your job where you are paid pennies a day. You are not allowed to use the paved roads, reserved now for your Iranian masters.
Fast forward 40 years later. Conditions have not improved. The farmland you worked for the last few years was just taken by Iranian settlers. Most people you know are still starving. You have seen family and friends die from lack of food and sanitation. Others were killed in Iranian raids to root out the nationalist secular resistance movement.
Two religious resistance movements have risen In the wake of the destruction of the nationalist resistance. It will soon be time to choose sides.
One side appears to be more moderate than the other, although they are still willing to resort to violence to achieve their goals. The only thing is, there are credible reports that they are getting shipments of weapons and money from the Iranian/German regime. The same regime that has forced you from your home, starved you for 40 years, killed your family and friends, and deprived you of your livelihood.
Both sides promise independence, so which side would you choose?
Chris, your analogy is completely flawed.
In any event, I think Col. Pat Lang’s comments on the issue are the best I’ve read so far:
I don’t agree with everything in his post, but I think the administration’s policy of supporting Fatah as the lesser of two evils is not very smart and will not provide the the policy claims.
I think it’s also worth reading Pollack over at Micheal Totten’s place:
Michael, I think you may find this speech by Robert Satloff interesting.
I take issue with some of what Crittenden is saying because I’m not sure that Fatah is strong enough to be rehabilitated and focus on anything more than self-interested wealth and power accumulation. But Israel has a nasty habit of rehabilitating it’s enemies, so we’ll see… I’ve come to the point of believing that if the world wants Israel to revisit 1967, the other warring parties — Egypt and Jordan — are going to have to come back to the table and be part of a future solution. In the absence of that, it’ll be status quo for the West Bank and who knows what for Gaza. I do not think the Palestinians are capable of self-rule at this point that doesn’t pose a threat to Israel. Israel screwed up time and again and is in many ways complicit in the current state of affairs, but hindsight is 20/20 and history is nothing if not a series of unintended consequences. Might not be fair, but there’s simply no way that Israel is going grant autonomy to a radicalized population that has proven time and again it is incapable of keeping calm.
There may be a strong future ahead, but it’s based on economics and industry — and that requires calm and a focus on civil society that respects rule of law and property rights. Just not happening right now… If Stef Wertheimer gave up, I’m sure as heck not going to have hope.
But predictions in this part of the world are a dime a dozen and overrated at best. We’ll see what happens…
Okay Michael – Here is a question. When the Palestinians were peaceful from 1967 to 1987 why did Israel not only take their land for settlements but refused to recognize any Palestinian rights? Basically, to the Palestinians it proved that non-violence does not work with the Israelis. Do you agree, disagree and why?
Is that non inflamatory enough for you?
Has a calm civil society ever emerged under martial law?
jd, if you will allow me to answer a question with a question, let me ask you something:
Even if I agree that Israeli policy towards Palestinians from 1967 to 1987 was foolhardy, counterproductive, and even immoral, what do you propose Israel does about the rockets that are raining daily on civilians in north and south Israel, suicide bombers that seek entry to bomb yet another pizza parlor or wedding, and the seizure of power by a group of religious extremists that is already killing opponents, imposing Shari’a law on women, trashing the tiny Christian community, and continuing its longstanding calls for the genocide of the Jews? Should Israel just sit by and quietly ponder its historical guilt while all this goes on? Or should Israel look to ensure its own defense?
Michael – Do you have any comment about Israeli textbooks not showing Palestine and how that is different from Palestinian textbooks not showing Israel?
jd’s comment encouraged me to look for any research on the content of Israeli and Palestinian textbooks. Assuming sound methodology (the article does not offer much detail on this point), the results are surprising for both sides of the debate.
Jason – At least you acknowledge some of Israel’s responsibility for this mess. That’s a start. The second part of your comment is the key issue. Yes, Israel must defend itself. However, the method they have used retaliation, walls, checkpoints etc has just put a lid on on the conflict – not solved it. The only thing that will solve it is a peace agreement. That’s an avenue the Israelis have not yet tried. Barak’s offer at Camp David was insulting. It would not have rolled up a single meaningful settlement. It was just his promise that over the next 25 years, maybe could be, possibly some more settlements would be dismantled and turned over to the Palestinians. It was an offer of Areas A&B from the Wye River Agreement – big whoppee.
If you recall, Olmert during the original Kadima campaign ran around telling people the the Gaza withdrawal was formeldehyde so that Israel would not have to abandon the West Bank. You have Knesset members running all over the West Bank telling settlers not to worry – we’ll NEVER LEAVE and never turn over the Jordan Valley to “them”.
If two countries are formed then if the Palestinians act up, Israel can do what they always have done -retaliate and the world will be behind them. They can build Walls on their own territory – they can do lots of things. However, the Palestinians would have something to lose if they had their own country – they have nothing now.
I just don’t know how any state can even start on a peace agreement with a group that is explicitly dedicated to its destruction and the genocide of its people. You can criticize Barak’s offer a lot, but it doesn’t hold a candle to the flaws inherent to Hamas’ negotiating position which can be summed up as “shut up and die”.
Jason – Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and the PLO ALL once said the same thing. After some talking about a serious peace offering they recognized Israel and while the peace is cold, the incitement is minimal. Could the same thing happen with hamas?
Name the leader with which the Israeli’s can negotiate? Name the leader than speaks for all Palestinians and can enforce an agreement on the Palestinian side?
The fact is that the Palestinian side is in civil freakin war! Until they get their own house in order, provide a semi-united front and a legitimate leader with which to negotiate (and is willing to negotiate) how are the Israeli’s supposed to work toward peace, even if they were so inclined? It’s impossible. The ball is not in Israel’s court.
Jason – thanks to the link. It reflects my understanding of the textbook situation.
I can appreciate Israel not wanting to recognize Hamas, since Hamas has made it patently clear that they want to eliminate Israel, but not recognizing it, or even just attacking it, isn’t going to solve anything. Fatah simply can’t govern. They are rotten to the core. Hamas is very violent, but occasionally does manage to get something done. Hezbollah does this. They open and run schools and clinics, fix roads, help rebuild houses, and take care of the families of fallen member. You can’t expect Palestinians to all oppose a group that violently attacks people they hate anyway (and face it, your average Palestinian probably has SOME reason to hate Israel) and prefer a group that still hates Israel, but doesn’t get anything done.
In addition, you’re not likely to find many takers to the idea that “you can vote democratically, just as long as you vote for the people we want”.
Again, I understand that the problem is difficult (that may be the only thing clear about the whole mess) but pretending like you can force Palestinians to back Fatah, or that you can literally shoot Hamas out of existence, is simplistic at best. Not saying I know what the hell to do, I don’t know that ANYONE has a good solution.
Apparently not. Remember, when Hamas was elected, Israel, the Europeans, and the U.S. all explicitly asked them to drop their call for genocide and offered them the same deal that had been offered to the previous negotiation partners if they did so. Hamas explicitly refused, and even went out of its way to reiterate its goal of genocide.
It is fundamentally unreasonable to ask any group of people to “recognize” a political entity that is explicitly asking for their genocidal extermination. Any group that advocates genocide is by definition not a legitimate negotiating partner. You can’t negotiate with people who think mass murder is not only acceptable, but desirable.
My G-d, Hamas has been turned into some mythical monster in the eyes of the West. They have been blown way out of proportion. They are nothing more than a small group of Islamists using the typical hyperbolic rhetoric of the Mideast. What they are saying is they don’t believe Israel should be a separate Jewish country. If they had a chance they would transfer the Jews out, not exterminate them. It’s no different than all the Jewish voices calling for the transfer of Palestinians.
As a Jew with relatives in Israel who hopes some day to be buried there, I am concerned about Israel’s future. It is not the threat from Hamas I am concerned about, it’s the general muslim world. Israel cannot continue with this high profile antagonism generated by their treatment of the Palestinians. It’s been 40 years after all.
You’ve got a million+ Israeli arabs who have gone from ambivelence toward Israel to almost hatred of their own country. Why? Because they are treated like dirt in Israel – not terribly better than non-Israeli Palestinians. Their schools are atrocious and funding for arab schools is about 1/3 of Jewish schools. An Israeli arab getting a permit to open his own business is just about impossible these days. I could spend days telling you how descrimination, direct and indirect, is infused in the Israeli culture. Yet the arab population in 50 years will probably equal or exceed Jews and then they will get their revenge.
Israel won the last three wars against the arabs but one of these days their winning streak will come to an end. Nobody bats 1000 forever. Their only permanent salvation rests on establishing a firm and lasting peace with their arab neighbors, solidified by unshakeable economic ties. The last thing Israel needs is to deepen and entrench the hatred arabs have for them. Without a Peace, Israel will not last 50 years – the arabs will get them and it will be catastrophic. No one keeps a grudge better than arabs.
I think Jews deserve aand need a homeland and Israel is the spot. However, we will have nothing if we continue to be greedy about how much of the land is really necessary for our existence.
Unfortunately, that’s not what they actually say.
I’m curious as to why you want to sugercoat Hamas here. Do you have something specific that leads you to believe they are harmless or misunderstood? Or do you have a general orientation that leads you to prefer giving the benefit of the doubt to Palestinian groups in general or Hamas in particular?
I hope you notice that I’m not ascribing any negative motives here, but am asking about actually plausible possibilities. I have a very negative view of Hamas based on my readings of what they have actually said and what they have actually done. If my interpretation is wrong, I’d like to know more than just assertions that I am wrong.
Entropy – Nice job of taking Pat Lang out of context. The post attacked the WaPo editorial, but your creative editing changed that. Here is a link to the full post.
Fred Hiatt is nuts!!
I wonder why you left these two paragraphs out.
Then you cut out this paragraph that is between the text from your comment.
No John Hamas would not jsut ‘deport’ the Jews if it was up to them: they would happily kill every single Jew.
And – I for one have learned from WWII and the Nazis. When people say that they want to kill all Zionists (read: Jews), wipe Israel off the map, that Jews are monsters, etc., I take them seriously.
Michael and Jason – This is my last word on the subject – at least for a day (LOL) Hamas is far from a benign organization. They are very dangerous and have to not only be monitored but also defended against. However, they are in no position to annialate Israel or the Jews. They are a small military oprganization of about 10,000 men. They are not and never will be a threat to the IDF.
In short, they are not Germany with Nazis. Hamas rhetoric is inflamatory but read the Jerusalem Post talkback for you English readers and you will see statements equally inflamatory to Hamas. For Hebrew speakers go to Israel and listen to the words of Likud and many Kadima Knesset members as they give talks to their constituents. Some of them will make your hair curl. The Jews of modern Israel ate NOT the Jews of 1930′s and 40′s in Germany and Poland. They do not cower in fear and are perfectly willing to take WHATEVER steps are necessary to get what they want. Now all you have to guess is what they really want.
The Israeli/Palestinian problem has to be solved one way or another. It cannot be solved without the buy in of Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad (a far more dangerous group than Hamas) and ALL the neighboring arab countries.