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A Corner Is Turned (No, Not That One)
Some of the liveliest comment threads here at The Moderate Voice have been over the question of whether the Iraq war is lost in the traditional (which is to say military) sense. A goodly number of commenters have stoutly defended the notion that the war is not lost and the U.S. needs to be given more time, more troops, and so on and so forth.
But as winter turned to spring and now spring is turning to summer, those voices have fallen silent.
Where are you guys? What happened to your war? Your silence is deafening.
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17 Responses to “A Corner Is Turned (No, Not That One)”
Shaun, are you trying to poke the bear?
Not really. I am, to be honest, trying to gather fodder for a future post on why so many supporters of the war were suddenly struck deaf and dumb during the aforementioned period.
Maybe Rush or Hannity hasn’t told them what to think yet. j/k
Seriously, with the latest story of Petraeus lowering expectations on the “Surge” do you really need any more fodder than that?
I’m into watershed moments, not “I told you so” moments.
It’s just that I don’t think that most of the more vitriolic pro-war drum beaters here have the guts to acknowledge that they too no longer believe that the war can be won.
I’m not saying that they’re cowardly, only that having expended so much vitriol going after people like myself who have long argued that the war can’t be won, they’re just all tuckered out. Or something.
Well, Shaun, I don’t know if I’m on your little “list” but I will step up and say that I have become convinced that any semblence of “winning” in Iraq is impossible. I want to wait until Petreaus’ report in September to assess whether any incremental progress can be rescued prior to withdrawal, but I think withdrawal far short of earlier goals is politically and militarily inevitable.
and i’ve already stated that it’s lost, for me it’s a matter of damage control.
“I want to wait until Petreaus’ report in September to assess whether…”
Jason, I don’t know if you meet his “list” criteria either. I myself have seen you be thoughtful in your support and analysis thus far and wouldn’t count you in with the “pro-war drum beaters” group.
Does the September report really mean anything now? With the latest news that we’re staying no matter what the report says. It seems obvious to me that this administration is going to try and force congress to end the war in a CYA action.
Even if the decisions of the actual players (the President and Congress) may be hardened by their political calculations, Petreaus’ report matters to me. I prefer not to let my own thoughts be determined by others’.
Also, I think the report will have an impact in that it will influence the arguments going in to the 2008 election, at least among whatever people are around within the electorate and the elite public who are still willing to consider actual metrics. This is the stuff we pay military professionals to do — provide expert advice about the military situations we actually face. The Pentagon under Rumsfeld made a point of rejecting that advice, which got us to where we are today. To compound that error by refusing to listen after Rumsfeld is finally out of the way (i.e. Pelosi’s refusal to hear Petraeus’ report in May) strikes me as counterproductive at best.
Do you guys trust Gen. Petraeus to give the straight scoop in September. After reading Sy Hersh’s article on how Gen. Taguba was treated by senior army officers after his Abu Ghraib report, it appears that the senior officers are infected with politics. Will Petraeus risk ruining his career by telling the truth and being treated like Taguba and Shinseki?
Petraeus has a good record for being willing to tell truth to power and he was extremely blunt on this point in his confirmation hearings. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt, especially in the current political climate where any effort to whip him into line ala Rumsfeld won’t work.
Besides, you have to trust someone. I think Petreaus is more trustworthy than any of the alternative sources of information. Also, he has promised to base his report on actual metrics, not abstractions. So there will be data, not just rhetoric.
Jason – I hope you are right. However, when I read in the June 13th issue of USA Today Gen Petraeus’s comment:
“When Gen. David Petraeus drives through the streets of Iraq’s capital, he sees “astonishing signs of normalcy” in half, perhaps two-thirds of Baghdad.
“I’m talking about professional soccer leagues with real grass field stadiums, several amusement parks — big ones, markets that are very vibrant,” says Petraeus, commander of the roughly 150,000 U.S. troops in Iraq. The scenes provide a sign that the new strategy in Iraq is working, although many problems remain, he told USA TODAY in an interview Wednesday”
He seems to be prejudging the surge and that has put doubts in my mind. I remember reading is some newspaper (can’t remember which one) a reporter stationed in Baghdad asking where the Hell are these grass soccer stadiums and big amusement parks? He sure hasn’t seen anything like that. There are two small amusement parks he knows of, both with old broken down rides that are dusty and dirty with no electricity to run the rides or much else.
You’re cherry-picking one non-representative statement from the mass of Petreaus’ statements. He has repeatedly reiterated that it is far too soon to draw any conclusions, that much “heavy lifting” remains, that insurgents have adjusted to Baghdad by moving to outer areas, etc, etc, etc.
He does see some signs of progress, but that’s what we should expect from a honest assessment — seeing BOTH good and bad. Its when people ALWAYS see ONLY good or ONLY bad that they lose credibility, isn’t it?
Jason – You may be right that the above comment is non-representative. However, I have been getting uneasy over the trend of his comments. Well see if in September if he sticks to his promise to use metrics for his eveluation. I’ve got this uneasy feeling that come September we’ll get platitudes and a request for a “friedman” because it’s too early to tell. We’ll see. I’m keeping a copy of this posting and lets see what September brings and our disagreement may be solved in one or the other’s favor.
The Immigration fiasco has become the main article of interest.
Harry Reid could not wait to table the bill and the day he did he and Nanny Pelosi issued another blistering statement denouncing Bush as being an idiot on the war.
The democrats understand their only hope in getting the 08 White House is with ONE issue. The war. Anything that keeps them from this goal is foley. Talking about social issues….they lose. Talking about economic issues…they lose. Raising taxes…they lose.
Bashing Bush on the War…..they win.
As you imply you want more ammo for your future article to keep the war going.
The truth is Shaun. People are bored of the war and realized that the democrats LIED to them to get elected. There is nothing the democrats can do about the war until they have a president in the White House.
The democrats LIED. They said they would take care of this war. Now they are moaning about not being able to do anything because as I quote Reid “there are proceedures we have to follow and we need the Republicans help………………………DUH…YA THINK?????
But I will give my assessment.
The war in Iraq cannot be won in the conventional sense. Never could. It was doomed the minute we invaded Iraq with the aim of removing Saddam and putting democracy in his place.
It goes back to the Western Values forced on Eastern Values people.
I have never advocated the war could be won. I have advocated the war should be Managed to prevent spillage.
I have said this a 100 times. Shaun see my above post. The left knows that the only way to keep the chances of an 08 win is to keep the war on the front page.
The republicans know this too. Why do you think we have made such strong efforts to put other things on page ONE????
Immigration, taxes, The poor rating of congress. Harry Reid. Nancy Pelosi.
I mean we are only doing to the left what the left has been doing to us for 6 years. Is that not fair? The left accuses us of polarized politics and I double over laughing at the hypocrisy.
Is this not EXACTLY what the left is doing with the WAR…its the war and nothing but the war stupid arguments?
The right divides with social issues. The left divides with War issues….where is the distinction??
Somebody, where did you get your rose colored glasses?
Rambie
You can find them at any store that sells American Flags and Democratic and Republican Bumper stickers.
Sitting out front are two booths. One for GOP recruiters and the other for Democratic Recruiters.
Each day they uncover their booths and shake hands, laugh and joke, pat each other on the backs and then when its time to open, their face grows sullen and they prepare to throw at you their worse case scenarios.
The Republicans tell us that the world will end because of Immigration and Muslims.
The Democrat counters that no the world will end if we do not address Global Warming and Health Care.
They beat and thump their chests and at the end of the day, close up their booths and go have a beer and talk about football.
In a land far away. These two men or women would close up shop and pull out their ak-47′s and shoot it out till one is dead.
So its easy to have rose colored glasses. Just find any shop that sells American flags, buy one….walk out of that shop and either wave it proudly or burn it and see how many people “Kick your arse” Report back to be with the results.
Once you do. Ill issue you a pair of Rose colored Glasses.