How is Hamas in power? There was an election. Are you saying the election was illegitimate?

As a matter of fact, when normal people express outrage at Hamas’s terrorist conduct as well as origin, some defenders of that organization will remind us that Hamas is the “legitimately elected government of the Palestinian authority” (as if any and all terrorism they proceed to continue committing is therefore more defensible than it was before).

If Jordan removes the need for a Palestinian state, then NY removes the need for a Jewish one.

You’re saying Jordan (at least implicitly) removes the “need” [sic] for another Palestinian state; I am not saying that, obviously.

Don’t be ridiculous.

Mirror talk!

Don’t you know the difference between “two” and “three”? Don’t you understand the meaning of “Most of us assume Israel will vacate some, and possibly most, of the Territories eventually”? Apparently not. Or (as I have seen with others) you have your own ideas that you prefer over reality and logic, for that matter. Must be some awfully strong feelings at work there.

Also, when Israel declared itself a nation, it kicked Palestinians off of the land.

Actually the arabs ordered them to leave to get them out of the way so they can kill the Jews and prevent the birth of Israel. When the arabs lost, rather than absorb them into their countries, they left the refugees in place to be used as pawns to destroy Israel in the future.

If you want to argue who has the right to the land due to oldest occupation claim, you can go all the way back to the Canaanites. Also, when Israel declared itself a nation, it kicked Palestinians off of the land. So neither side is innocent. Also, the persecution suffered by the Jews in Europe and other places does not give Israel the right to persecute other peoples.
In this day in age, we should be modern enough, civilized enough not to say one side or another deserves what they get. Blaming either side will get us nowhere in this conflict (we can even blame the British for this mess, not to mention the Ottomans… where does it stop?) We should have the ability to help both sides reconcile their differences and live peacefully.

Bruce,
I’m not saying the election was illegitimate (although I dont really know, one way or the other). What I was saying is that there was a ton of American/Israeli money being used to TRY to influence the election. And just because the money didn’t have the desired effect, that doesn’t mean there wasn’t A effect.

What do you mean political differences have no way to be addressed in the OTs. How is Hamas in power? There was an election. Are you saying the election was illegitimate?

2. No, those jokers are not ready for statehood. In fact, they are terrorists and other criminals who should be suppressed.

3. Most of us assume Israel will vacate some, and possibly most, of the Territories eventually. It does not look good to see what has happened so far, not just the destroyed greenhouses, not just the conduct of terrorism against Israel, but also the self-destruction we have been seeing before and are seeing again now.

4. You lefties on here are wrong again, as usual. Israel isn’t “causing” the terrorists to be terrorists and turn on each other, any more than it or the USA is “causing” Arabs to kill each other in Iraq, or to blame for “causing” Arabs to kill each other in the rest of the Middle East, which they do from time to time. Meanwhile, Arab nations exploit the Palestinian Arabs and we hear nothing from you.

That type of situation, not to mention the excesses of the Israeli occupation, is going to cause violence and infighting.

Also, why have we so quickly forgotten that the U.S. and Israel have been arming different factions within Israel for years now.

For the sake of argument, I will assume that your metaphor of the stolen house and the two brothers capsulates what has gone in the territory constituting the western portion of what was the British Mandate of Palestine. You assume that, but for the Israeli occupation, which I abhor and oppose, there would be no factional strife between the Palestinians. That, my friend, is wishful and linear thinking I submit. Life and politics, even (or perhaps especially) in the Middle East is not so easily explained. Of course, if you are so wedded to what some would like to call a “progressive pro-Palestinian position”, it might be difficult to accept that Palestinian brothers, like brothers since Cain and Abel, can in fact hate each other. Hamas’ fundamentalist propensities are hardly compatible with the more secular propensities of Fatah. But if it fits in with your construction of an Israel bad/Palestine good reality to think otherwise, hey this country remains free.

BTW, There were no fences and checkpoints prior to the intifada. They moved freely in and out of Israel. The palestinians themselves, due to making the choice of warring for the destruction of Israel, have created the conditions in which they now live.

Stop making excuses for these savages, chris. You have no idea what you are talking about. The Israelis have built schools and hospitals for these people, they had the highest standard of living and life expectancy in the arab world prior to the start of the second intifada. They are more interested in the destruction of Israel than in building a state. The Israelis left Gaza, left them greenhouses which instead of using them, looted and destroyed them. Instead of building an economy and infrastructure, they have used Gaza as a launching base for missile attacks on Israelis, as well as different factions of militias and tribes warring with each other.

You are a quintessential example of what is so contemptible about liberals. Don’t expect non-white, non-western people to ever be responsible for their own actions, their destructive, barbaric behavior is always the fault of westerners.

I’m sure there was a lot of talk in the South about how African-Americans would not able to handle being free, prior to the American Civil War.