Comments on: Fatal Flaw in the Surge http://themoderatevoice.com/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/ An Internet hub with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, indies, centrists, moderates, and right Wed, 15 Feb 2012 04:43:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Sam http://themoderatevoice.com/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-84056 Sam Mon, 04 Jun 2007 22:01:35 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/#comment-84056 Well right, but even so the point is still valid. Even more so as it shows the total chaos of the situation when the police ARE the guys they're supposed to protect the people from. Some say that our strategy is to wait for the Iraqi's to step up and take an active role in the future of their country. What they don't see is that is exactly what the people are doing, just not the way we want them to. Well right, but even so the point is still valid. Even more so as it shows the total chaos of the situation when the police ARE the guys they’re supposed to protect the people from. Some say that our strategy is to wait for the Iraqi’s to step up and take an active role in the future of their country. What they don’t see is that is exactly what the people are doing, just not the way we want them to.

]]> By: Entropy http://themoderatevoice.com/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-84038 Entropy Mon, 04 Jun 2007 20:43:54 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/#comment-84038 Iraqi soldiers for the most part are not "turning around and killing our soldiers." They're turning around and killing other Iraqis. The real problem has been keeping soldiers and police from different ethnic groups from killing eachother, not Americans. Iraqi soldiers for the most part are not “turning around and killing our soldiers.” They’re turning around and killing other Iraqis. The real problem has been keeping soldiers and police from different ethnic groups from killing eachother, not Americans.

]]> By: Sam http://themoderatevoice.com/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-84002 Sam Mon, 04 Jun 2007 19:03:05 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/#comment-84002 "If the Iraqis we are training and supporting are turning around and killing our soldiers, why are we persisting in this strategy?" Short answer, because the administration doesn't have a clue. They think Iraqi's deep down are just waiting for a shot to be like us. Also, as to why they are never going to give up, why would they? Its their home, they aren't going anywhere and have everything to gain by giving their all. We on the other hand are just pushing a political agenda of the moment, in the long run this conflict means very little to our nation's future in terms of how we live our lives. “If the Iraqis we are training and supporting are turning around and killing our soldiers, why are we persisting in this strategy?”

Short answer, because the administration doesn’t have a clue. They think Iraqi’s deep down are just waiting for a shot to be like us.

Also, as to why they are never going to give up, why would they? Its their home, they aren’t going anywhere and have everything to gain by giving their all. We on the other hand are just pushing a political agenda of the moment, in the long run this conflict means very little to our nation’s future in terms of how we live our lives.

]]> By: Entropy http://themoderatevoice.com/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-83973 Entropy Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:14:00 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/#comment-83973 Loyalty has always been the key and is something I've talked about for a couple of years now at least. A central government means nothing without loyalty. It doesn't necessarily need the direct loyalty of common individuals, at least not yet, but it needs the loyalty of the tribal and ethnic leaders who are the ones that are really Iraq's power brokers. That's probably one of the greatest mistakes the US made - the failure to recognize that tribes and other local leaders, not individual Iraqi's, are the key players in Iraq. We'll see if the "surge" improves over the summer. The final forces are just now getting into place. Loyalty has always been the key and is something I’ve talked about for a couple of years now at least. A central government means nothing without loyalty. It doesn’t necessarily need the direct loyalty of common individuals, at least not yet, but it needs the loyalty of the tribal and ethnic leaders who are the ones that are really Iraq’s power brokers. That’s probably one of the greatest mistakes the US made – the failure to recognize that tribes and other local leaders, not individual Iraqi’s, are the key players in Iraq.

We’ll see if the “surge” improves over the summer. The final forces are just now getting into place.

]]> By: The Heretik : Surge Update http://themoderatevoice.com/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-83965 The Heretik : Surge Update Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:57:56 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/#comment-83965 [...] reports come out that the surge isn’t working quite as planned, what does it mean?  Hold on a minute? Is clear and hold not working?  Is this a sign the progress report [...] [...] reports come out that the surge isn’t working quite as planned, what does it mean?  Hold on a minute? Is clear and hold not working?  Is this a sign the progress report [...]

]]> By: Rudi http://themoderatevoice.com/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-83956 Rudi Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:34:33 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/#comment-83956 Yes as the "ghost soldiers" stand up, we'll step down. As Yogi Berra said,"It's <strike>DejaVue</strike>Operation Together Forward all over again." http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oif-forward-together.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Together_Forward <blockquote>The Iraq Study Group, in its December 2006 report [3] cited Operation Together Forward II (i.e. the second phase of the Operation), writing: “ In a major effort to quell the violence in Iraq, U.S. military forces joined with Iraqi forces to establish security in Baghdad with an operation called Operation Together Forward II, which began in August 2006. Under Operation Together Forward II, U.S. forces are working with members of the Iraqi Army and police to “clear, hold, and build” in Baghdad, moving neighborhood by neighborhood. There are roughly 15,000 U.S. troops in Baghdad. This operation—and the security of Baghdad—is crucial to security in Iraq more generally... The results of Operation Together Forward II are disheartening. Violence in Baghdad—already at high levels—jumped more than 43 percent between the summer and October 2006. U.S. forces continue to suffer high casualties.</blockquote> Yes as the “ghost soldiers” stand up, we’ll step down. As Yogi Berra said,”It’s DejaVueOperation Together Forward all over again.”
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oif-forward-together.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Together_Forward

The Iraq Study Group, in its December 2006 report [3] cited Operation Together Forward II (i.e. the second phase of the Operation), writing:
“ In a major effort to quell the violence in Iraq, U.S. military forces joined with Iraqi forces to establish security in Baghdad with an operation called Operation Together Forward II, which began in August 2006. Under Operation Together Forward II, U.S. forces are working with members of the Iraqi Army and police to “clear, hold, and build” in Baghdad, moving neighborhood by neighborhood. There are roughly 15,000 U.S. troops in Baghdad. This operation—and the security of Baghdad—is crucial to security in Iraq more generally… The results of Operation Together Forward II are disheartening. Violence in Baghdad—already at high levels—jumped more than 43 percent between the summer and October 2006. U.S. forces continue to suffer high casualties.

]]> By: kritter http://themoderatevoice.com/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-83943 kritter Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:44:12 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/#comment-83943 One thing we should have learned by now- any faction who has a gripe with another sect dating from the 7th century is not going to give up in our lifetime. Look at the Palestinians they have never given up and will never give up. It is very difficult to win a permanent military victory in a culture where your family is honored and supported if one of its members straps on a bomb and blows up 50 civilians in a cafe. As in Vietnam, we are losing because we don't understand the culture of Iraq or its history. One thing we should have learned by now- any faction who has a gripe with another sect dating from the 7th century is not going to give up in our lifetime. Look at the Palestinians they have never given up and will never give up. It is very difficult to win a permanent military victory in a culture where your family is honored and supported if one of its members straps on a bomb and blows up 50 civilians in a cafe. As in Vietnam, we are losing because we don’t understand the culture of Iraq or its history.

]]> By: Commanders Say Push in Baghdad Is Short of Goal « Michael P.F. van der Galiën http://themoderatevoice.com/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-83938 Commanders Say Push in Baghdad Is Short of Goal « Michael P.F. van der Galiën Mon, 04 Jun 2007 10:22:25 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/#comment-83938 [...] More at State of the Day, Jules Crittenden and The Moderate Voice. [...] [...] More at State of the Day, Jules Crittenden and The Moderate Voice. [...]

]]> By: Elrod http://themoderatevoice.com/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-83928 Elrod Mon, 04 Jun 2007 04:56:31 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/#comment-83928 I thought about including the sahel reference too. It shows how far the various factions in Iraq are from giving up. I thought about including the sahel reference too. It shows how far the various factions in Iraq are from giving up.

]]> By: mikkel http://themoderatevoice.com/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-83926 mikkel Mon, 04 Jun 2007 04:00:36 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/13234/fatal-flaw-in-the-surge/#comment-83926 <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/weekinreview/03wong.html?adxnnl=2&ref=weekinreview&adxnnlx=1180929655-/LSMVWtoKipYMJGuMpdDyw" rel="nofollow">If this is accurate</a> then there is no hope really. If this is accurate then there is no hope really.

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