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	<title>Comments on: U.S. Rejects G-8 Greenhouse Climate Proposals</title>
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	<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/</link>
	<description>An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right</description>
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		<title>By: C Stanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82524</link>
		<dc:creator>C Stanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 12:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82524</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Jim Satterfield Says: 

May 27th, 2007 at 7:13 pm 
The U.S. approach would be correct if the encouragements for this new technology was somewhat stronger than being the equivalent of pushing a one ton boulder with your pinky.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Then why not start helping to push the boulder instead of decrying those who are trying to do so?

Dave Shuler is right- I think it was he, in another thread here, who called the European approach a shell game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Jim Satterfield Says: </p>
<p>May 27th, 2007 at 7:13 pm<br />
The U.S. approach would be correct if the encouragements for this new technology was somewhat stronger than being the equivalent of pushing a one ton boulder with your pinky.</p></blockquote>
<p>Then why not start helping to push the boulder instead of decrying those who are trying to do so?</p>
<p>Dave Shuler is right- I think it was he, in another thread here, who called the European approach a shell game.</p>
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		<title>By: Atlantic Review</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82516</link>
		<dc:creator>Atlantic Review</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 09:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82516</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Germany Confronts the United States and Russia&lt;/strong&gt;

The Moderate Voice quoted the New York Times earlier this week:  In unusually harsh language, Bush administration negotiators took issue with the German draft of the communiqu&#233; for the meeting of the Group of 8 industrialized nations, complaining t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Germany Confronts the United States and Russia</strong></p>
<p>The Moderate Voice quoted the New York Times earlier this week:  In unusually harsh language, Bush administration negotiators took issue with the German draft of the communiqu&eacute; for the meeting of the Group of 8 industrialized nations, complaining t</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Satterfield</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82511</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Satterfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 02:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82511</guid>
		<description>The U.S. approach would be correct if the encouragements for this new technology was somewhat stronger than being the equivalent of pushing a one ton boulder with your pinky.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The U.S. approach would be correct if the encouragements for this new technology was somewhat stronger than being the equivalent of pushing a one ton boulder with your pinky.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82463</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 May 2007 12:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82463</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to see more info on why Germany&#039;s approach (carbon tax/cap and trade) is right and the U. S. approach (technological solutions e.g. scrubbing, sequestration) is wrong.  Perhaps, as Jim Satterfield suggests, the U. S. &lt;b&gt;is&lt;/b&gt; leading by example but intransigent Europeans are insisting on their own impractical approaches.  I just don&#039;t know and this particular article doesn&#039;t help me much.

I believe that global warming exists and that human activity contributes to it.  The question is what&#039;s the right way to deal with it?

Practically all of the real reductions in carbon emissions in the U. S. and Europe over the last ten years have come as a consequence of exporting manufacturing to China.  Is that a winning strategy?  That&#039;s what would happen, at least at the margins, in the Germany approach.  I&#039;m skeptical.

I suspect that this strategy will result in even more carbon emission in China rather than in Europe or the U. S. and, once it&#039;s moved to China, the problem becomes intractable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to see more info on why Germany&#8217;s approach (carbon tax/cap and trade) is right and the U. S. approach (technological solutions e.g. scrubbing, sequestration) is wrong.  Perhaps, as Jim Satterfield suggests, the U. S. <b>is</b> leading by example but intransigent Europeans are insisting on their own impractical approaches.  I just don&#8217;t know and this particular article doesn&#8217;t help me much.</p>
<p>I believe that global warming exists and that human activity contributes to it.  The question is what&#8217;s the right way to deal with it?</p>
<p>Practically all of the real reductions in carbon emissions in the U. S. and Europe over the last ten years have come as a consequence of exporting manufacturing to China.  Is that a winning strategy?  That&#8217;s what would happen, at least at the margins, in the Germany approach.  I&#8217;m skeptical.</p>
<p>I suspect that this strategy will result in even more carbon emission in China rather than in Europe or the U. S. and, once it&#8217;s moved to China, the problem becomes intractable.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudi</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82410</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 19:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82410</guid>
		<description>Canada is a very cold and sparesly populated country. This accounts for the per capita carbon use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Canada is a very cold and sparesly populated country. This accounts for the per capita carbon use.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Satterfield</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82407</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Satterfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 18:50:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82407</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately for phin&#039;s arguments climatologists aren&#039;t idiots. They know better than most what goes into the natural cycles of climate and the overwhelming majority of them have come to the conclusion that the greatest contributor to the current warming trend is human activity. I consider those people who constantly denigrate the specialists in this field by insisting they must be wrong to be the nauseating people, placing their own narrow interests and beliefs above actual inspection of the situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately for phin&#8217;s arguments climatologists aren&#8217;t idiots. They know better than most what goes into the natural cycles of climate and the overwhelming majority of them have come to the conclusion that the greatest contributor to the current warming trend is human activity. I consider those people who constantly denigrate the specialists in this field by insisting they must be wrong to be the nauseating people, placing their own narrow interests and beliefs above actual inspection of the situation.</p>
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		<title>By: phin</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82401</link>
		<dc:creator>phin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 17:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82401</guid>
		<description>kritter

The US may be the #1 polluter but

- it accounts for about 20% of the world&#039;s GDP.  That said, if you use per capita figures, my own country Canada comes out ahead.  And Canada signed the Kyoto crap back in the 90s under the supposedly ecofriendly Liberals.  They did absolutely nothing for the entire time they were in power.  Nothing but cheap rhetoric.  Only when they were thrown out did they become ecowarriors again, under the tutelage of the Goracle&#039;s Canadian apostle Stephane Dion.  Why did they do nothing?  Because it would have been economic suicide and for what?  For a theory, a &quot;science&quot; that has NOT really been settled quite yet.

- China, within a couple of years will overtake the US and probably India within a decade or so assuming their economic growth continues.  And I&#039;m willing to bet that they will most likely be more inefficient than the US ie heavier polluters.  And you know what, they don&#039;t give a shit what the Followers of Global Warming and their Prophet the Goracle have to say.  Can you imagine if most of the developing world starts to achieve the kinds of economic growth and development that we have become so accustomed to?  Who do you think will be &quot;killing Mother Earth&quot; then?

Look, I&#039;m not against producing technologies that will make us more &quot;environmentally responsible&quot;.  And I&#039;m certainly for technology that will make us as independent of Middle Eastern oil as is possible and as soon as possible.  But let&#039;s be reasonable.  Let&#039;s leave aside all the gloom and doom and all the environmental evangelicism.  Global Warming is not a religion, nor should it be a political ideology; it&#039;s a scientific theory that may or may not be wrong.  For instance, taking care of the environment is a worthy cause even without Global Warming, err, Climate Change.  

And you know what else, there is such unbelievable self-absorbed, self-centered arrogance and hubris on the part of Global Warming Believers.  It&#039;s nauseating.  To wit, one of the goals is an &quot;agreement to slow the rise in average temperatures this century to 2C&quot;.  I&#039;m sorry, but do the Earth and the Sun get a vote on this?  Cause, you know, they have their own internal cycles independent of what we little gods on Earth do or do not do.  I&#039;m not saying that we have no effect whatsoever, but a little humble perspective would be nice and a honest acknowledgment of our limitations.  A bunch of feel good nonsense.  As if we would ever be able to manipulate and control the Earth&#039;s environment like that.  And would we really want to anyway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kritter</p>
<p>The US may be the #1 polluter but</p>
<p>- it accounts for about 20% of the world&#8217;s GDP.  That said, if you use per capita figures, my own country Canada comes out ahead.  And Canada signed the Kyoto crap back in the 90s under the supposedly ecofriendly Liberals.  They did absolutely nothing for the entire time they were in power.  Nothing but cheap rhetoric.  Only when they were thrown out did they become ecowarriors again, under the tutelage of the Goracle&#8217;s Canadian apostle Stephane Dion.  Why did they do nothing?  Because it would have been economic suicide and for what?  For a theory, a &#8220;science&#8221; that has NOT really been settled quite yet.</p>
<p>- China, within a couple of years will overtake the US and probably India within a decade or so assuming their economic growth continues.  And I&#8217;m willing to bet that they will most likely be more inefficient than the US ie heavier polluters.  And you know what, they don&#8217;t give a shit what the Followers of Global Warming and their Prophet the Goracle have to say.  Can you imagine if most of the developing world starts to achieve the kinds of economic growth and development that we have become so accustomed to?  Who do you think will be &#8220;killing Mother Earth&#8221; then?</p>
<p>Look, I&#8217;m not against producing technologies that will make us more &#8220;environmentally responsible&#8221;.  And I&#8217;m certainly for technology that will make us as independent of Middle Eastern oil as is possible and as soon as possible.  But let&#8217;s be reasonable.  Let&#8217;s leave aside all the gloom and doom and all the environmental evangelicism.  Global Warming is not a religion, nor should it be a political ideology; it&#8217;s a scientific theory that may or may not be wrong.  For instance, taking care of the environment is a worthy cause even without Global Warming, err, Climate Change.  </p>
<p>And you know what else, there is such unbelievable self-absorbed, self-centered arrogance and hubris on the part of Global Warming Believers.  It&#8217;s nauseating.  To wit, one of the goals is an &#8220;agreement to slow the rise in average temperatures this century to 2C&#8221;.  I&#8217;m sorry, but do the Earth and the Sun get a vote on this?  Cause, you know, they have their own internal cycles independent of what we little gods on Earth do or do not do.  I&#8217;m not saying that we have no effect whatsoever, but a little humble perspective would be nice and a honest acknowledgment of our limitations.  A bunch of feel good nonsense.  As if we would ever be able to manipulate and control the Earth&#8217;s environment like that.  And would we really want to anyway?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Satterfield</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82396</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Satterfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 17:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82396</guid>
		<description>phin and those who share his view apparently don&#039;t grasp the idea of leading by example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>phin and those who share his view apparently don&#8217;t grasp the idea of leading by example.</p>
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		<title>By: kritter</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82395</link>
		<dc:creator>kritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 16:51:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82395</guid>
		<description>Rudi- With any luck we could even end up with a CIC next time that doesn&#039;t believe in evolution and wants to ban schools from teaching sex ed to students (though they&#039;d probably allow lectures on abstinence, lol) Bible classes are being added to the Texas curriculum. That is the way forward into the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rudi- With any luck we could even end up with a CIC next time that doesn&#8217;t believe in evolution and wants to ban schools from teaching sex ed to students (though they&#8217;d probably allow lectures on abstinence, lol) Bible classes are being added to the Texas curriculum. That is the way forward into the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudi</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82394</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 16:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82394</guid>
		<description>kr  - Thewhat about India and China is similar to the terorists torture so we should do the same to prevent a WMD attack. For born-again W to be on the moral high ground...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kr  &#8211; Thewhat about India and China is similar to the terorists torture so we should do the same to prevent a WMD attack. For born-again W to be on the moral high ground&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: kritter</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82392</link>
		<dc:creator>kritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 16:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82392</guid>
		<description>phin- The US is the sole global superpower, not to mention that we create 1/4 of the world&#039;s pollution. We should be taking the lead on this issue not pointing fingers at developing countries like India and China that do not share our values, and may never come around. If we were to take the lead a new technological direction could be initiated by our scientists to avoid future catastrophe and market workable solutions to the rest of the planet. It is shameful that this administration has taken the head-in-the-sand approach, to the point that states like California are suing the federal government to allow them to implement their own environmental standards. It has totally caved to business lobbies on this issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>phin- The US is the sole global superpower, not to mention that we create 1/4 of the world&#8217;s pollution. We should be taking the lead on this issue not pointing fingers at developing countries like India and China that do not share our values, and may never come around. If we were to take the lead a new technological direction could be initiated by our scientists to avoid future catastrophe and market workable solutions to the rest of the planet. It is shameful that this administration has taken the head-in-the-sand approach, to the point that states like California are suing the federal government to allow them to implement their own environmental standards. It has totally caved to business lobbies on this issue.</p>
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		<title>By: The Gun Toting Liberalâ„¢</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82389</link>
		<dc:creator>The Gun Toting Liberalâ„¢</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 16:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82389</guid>
		<description>[...] The Moderate Voice (Joe Gandelman) - &#8220;&#8230; Despite recent press reports suggesting that the United States might at least start to inch towards the same page on greenhouse gas emissions, the U.S. has rejected a German proposal that reportedly enjoyed great support in Europe â€” sharply pitting the Bush administration against European governments more than ever on environmental issues&#8230; &#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Moderate Voice (Joe Gandelman) &#8211; &#8220;&#8230; Despite recent press reports suggesting that the United States might at least start to inch towards the same page on greenhouse gas emissions, the U.S. has rejected a German proposal that reportedly enjoyed great support in Europe â€” sharply pitting the Bush administration against European governments more than ever on environmental issues&#8230; &#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: phin</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/comment-page-1/#comment-82388</link>
		<dc:creator>phin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 15:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/science/environment/13058/us-rejects-g-8-greenhouse-climate-proposals/#comment-82388</guid>
		<description>Did China, India or any other potentially massive polluter sign up to this?  If not, then the Euros can take their new Eco Religion and shove it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did China, India or any other potentially massive polluter sign up to this?  If not, then the Euros can take their new Eco Religion and shove it.</p>
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