It is hard without getting into huge posts to make the case that there are times that coercive interrogation is necessary and useful, that we must take care that we don’t cross the line (which is damn hard to define), and that while we don’t want to be seen as a brutal regime; that one can oppose the regular and systemic use of such techniques, but still feel there are times that they need to be available.

And that position is admittedly easy to attack on emotional grounds. It is just like animal testing. I believe that is necessary too, but show me a picture of what goes on in the labs, and it is painful to see.

And Christ, please don’t anyone try to claim. that I am in any way equating the torture of humans with animal testing.

Instead of letting the viciousness of our enemies determine what we consider right and wrong, I for one prefer the old American standard, the ones supposedly embodied in the Geneva Convention, as our moral yardstick in these matters. Subjective ones like “They use powerdrills so its ok for us to use the rack because its only half as bad” just don’t seem American to me.

Moreover, the real issue (though these other people have misused “torture”) is that of accountability. I might add as well that there are shortcomings here in the States in some cases and places, and more interestingly, at least once this has involved someone who also was at Abu Ghraib.

“The experts also point out that the man who directed the reopening of the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq last year and trained the guards there resigned under pressure as director of the Utah Department of Corrections in 1997 after an inmate died while shackled to a restraining chair for 16 hours. The inmate, who suffered from schizophrenia, was kept naked the whole time.

The Utah official, Lane McCotter, later became an executive of a private prison company, one of whose jails was under investigation by the Justice Department when he was sent to Iraq as part of a team of prison officials, judges, prosecutors and police chiefs picked by Attorney General John Ashcroft to rebuild the country’s criminal justice system.

Mr. McCotter, 63, is director of business development for Management & Training Corporation, a Utah-based firm that says it is the third-largest private prison company, operating 13 prisons. In 2003, the company’s operation of the Santa Fe jail was criticized by the Justice Department and the New Mexico Department of Corrections for unsafe conditions and lack of medical care for inmates. No further action was taken.”

“When Mr. Ashcroft announced the appointment of the team to restore Iraq’s criminal justice system last year, including Mr. McCotter, he said, ”Now all Iraqis can taste liberty in their native land, and we will help make that freedom permanent by assisting them to establish an equitable criminal justice system based on the rule of law and standards of basic human rights.”

A Justice Department spokeswoman, Monica Goodling, did not return phone calls asking why Mr. Ashcroft had chosen Mr. McCotter even though his firm’s operation of the Santa Fe jail had been criticized by the Justice Department.”

http://www.hermes-press.com/prisoner_mistreatment.htm

Does that make it OK? No, not necessarily. But whether those techniques are or are not torture is a separate argument from if we want our countrymen to use them.

And quite simply, not all forms of coercive interrogation, even distasteful ones, are ‘torture’, and asking, ‘pretty please’, is not always sufficient.

Humiliations and brutality are not torture. There can be torture as well where the other two are found, but there is a distinction.

Besides, this is America. I don’t want my country’s morality defined by Al Qaeda.

BTW, the number of detainees dead in our custody exceeds the number of american POWs dead in custody during Vietnam. Repeat, the north vietnamese took better care of our guys that we take care of terrorist suspects. Let that sink in and swear that we are not doing something wrong with our prisoners.

AR I do agree with you that some people are trying to re-define the work torture. But it’s not only the ones you think.

I think some of the ones on that list you so quickly dismissed ARE forms of torture. Granted, much milder forms than described in that manual. But I don’t think raiser the bar on the definition is good for America either.

Either we are or we aren’t going to be using these milder forms or torture, but be honest about it and don’t split hairs trying to redefine it.

Dilawar’s death (and any others like his), torture.

The problem is, no one is held accountable. Which is also known as implicitly ignoring torture.

Why was the commander who overruled the coroner and ruled the death from natural causes not givin so much as a letter of reprimand?

Because the powers that be approved of the torture.

What I did say is that we have debased the word torture down.

screaming out the ingredients on a box of Frosted Flakes to keep captives awake…forced nudity, the draping of women’s underwear on Arab men, or sexual come-ons from women soldiers; the menacing use of dogs (which are considered ritually unclean animals in Islam and rarely kept in homes); and sensory and sleep deprivation….(i)f a man is forced to masturbate in front of his captors, is that not torture?

Nope, sorry, none of those come even close to torture, especially compared to the Smoking Gun’s post.

IMHO.

And if we didn’t torture him to death over there, he may have come to drive cabs over here. And those guys smell bad.

Interesting note, the article you linked to mentioned that low ranking soldiers were prosecuted. The vast majority were aquitted and among those convicted, the harshest penalty was five months in jail and a big chicken dinner.

That surely sent a message to the troops that we just won’t stand for killing innocent taxi drivers.

No Austin, we would never do anything as rough as the terrorists.

> I can’t bring myself
> to look at the pictures

They largely depict several forms of torture already known to have been committed by the Mukhabarat, the intelligence service under Saddam Hussein. But some methods may be beyond what Hussein was doing. Maybe.

K, in Siberia, in summertime the condemned could be stripped to a post and the mosquitoes would do the dirty work.

Chris: yeah, right, we “are” as bad as these guys or those in the New Mexico penitentiary that massacred fellow inmates, including with an acetylene torch, and who cut the eyes out of at least one inmate.