Uh, not unless you’re a psychopath. Most people can separate the scum from the good in their life, but it doesn’t mean one must eliminate them, Don Steck.

The diff between hateful and evil is simple. The hateful hurt only themselves. It’s when that hate is released outwards that it becomes evil.

There is also a difference between the kind of bile a Falwell and a Farrakham represent, just as racism from blacks and whites are different. A Falwell is someone whop comes from a place of privilege, by virtues of his skin color, so when he looks down his nose with hate, it’s from a power position. When a Farrakhan looks at hate w someone- or a Sharpton, or Jesse J, it’s from a position often of having been stepped on. This does not dismiss Farrakhan;s bile, Sharpton’s charaltanry and scams, nor Jackson ambivalence, but there is a difference. White supremacists hate out of a personal fear of some unnameable force, whereas blacks who are bigots hate because they’ve been shat on. The end results may be indistinguishable, but that does not mean one should not note the different starting points.

There is a diff between naked hate, and hating the hater. I prefer the Oscar Wilde approach- mock all the idiots. Nothing, and I mean nothing, leaves someone who is wrong feeling shittier than depantsing them in public, and laghing at them. It’s actually fun- be it a left or right wing nut.

Or even a moderate nut.

That all said, what else is POlitical Correctness but Fascism, and the desire to shut the other side up? Take pornography- since someone mentioned Larry Flynt. Far left Feminazis have been even more despicable and hate filled at railing against women in the biz, as if a porno star needs some dumb Feminazi like Andrea Dworkin telling them the best way to live. The Dworkins of the world are every bit as sick and twisted as Falwell.

Call spades spades.

That said, I would think you had to find it amusing to be held up as the example of an intolerant, reactionary right-winger.

“Mr. Falwell has been a polarizing figure in American life. He is talented, but I don’t think he understands the fragile nature of pluralism. You can’t constantly hammer away that the opposition is aligned with Satan, and not expect to weaken the democratic center. That’s murderous rhetoric.”

I would completely agree with this quotation. I would extend it also to include those who hammer away that their opposition is all “racist”, “sexist”, “homopohbic”, “genocidal” or other secular versions of absolute condemnation.

The left are angry and condemn the right’s intolerance

How long and how far does this absolute license extend? I mean, how much hate is justified by claiming that it is just a response to hate? Is “well, they started it” really the height of aspiration you have for the quality of political debate?

“After Falwell died yesterday, the ’08 Republican candidates jockeyed predictably for the honor of being the first to praise his fine work and pander to Falwell fans in GOP primary states. The winner for quickest email – no surprise – was John McCain, who extolled Falwell’s contributions to “faith and country.”

But, at the risk of disrespecting the deceased, I’ll offer a counter-assessment from Marc Tanenbaum of the American Jewish Committee. Tanenbaum, who had met frequently with Falwell, said this to me 20 years ago:

“Mr. Falwell has been a polarizing figure in American life. He is talented, but I don’t think he understands the fragile nature of pluralism. You can’t constantly hammer away that the opposition is aligned with Satan, and not expect to weaken the democratic center. That’s murderous rhetoric.”

I listen to it for two reasons:

1) lack of political talk radio alternatives
2) I like listening to arguments that I disagree with

I recognize that right-wing talk radio is often filled with vitriol. I used that point not to say right-wingers are not vitriolic but to emphasize how surprising it is to me that even as hateful as right-wingers often are, left-wingers seem easily and consistently able to exceed that level of hate. And they seem able to do so while cloaking themselves in claims of tolerance and respect — its downright Orwellian.

kritter Says:

May 15th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
jason- If you listen to talk radio and still think the left uses more demonization and hate, maybe you just don’t notice it as much, when it comes from your side. The only reason that right wing talk radio shows have millions of listeners, is because there’s a large audience that agrees with Rush and Sean when they bash liberals.

I think, Kim, that Jason already acknowledged that he knows sometimes it’s harder to see it from your own side. Will you acknowledge the same?

I think it is a sad statement when the best response that many can come up with towards intense ideological disagreement is to openly hope for their opponents to die.

I feel bad for his family, but his ideology was put into action, and that was a personal threat to me. Therefore when someone that threatens my freedom to live as I see fit (within reason mind you), ANYONE that does so can kiss my a$$, nor do I hold my tongue out of fake respect for the dead. I’d rather be honest about how I feel than lie, which is something too many people do out of this “respect” you talk of. Respect is earned, and he voided that loooooonnnnngggg ago with those that know better.

There is a difference, IMO. Personally despising someone because you find them full of hate is not hypocritical, as long as you’re hating the individual, who hates a whole class of people. Falwell has contributed to, and justified in others, an aura of hatred against millions of ordinary Americans. Hating him is not hypocritical, hating all Christian fundamentalists, or even all of his supporters, would be. Cheering for his death? Nah, why bother. But I will not be cowed into saying I find it “sad”. I do not, in my opinion a bad man died, and therefore I will not in any way miss him. He never respected those millions who disagreed with him or didn’t live (his) “right” way, never gave them that measure of decency that is now being demanded for him, so though I wasn’t calling for his death (the way Pat Robertson did for Supreme Court justices) and will not party as a result, I will never say that the world is poorer for his passing.

BTW, not that it matters, but I thought Holly was Jewish.

I don’t see where “democracy” is advanced by acting as an apologist and blame-shifter for repressive regimes the way Chomsky did for the Khmer Rouge. Remember, according to Chomsky, no one in the world seems capable of bad actions on their own — anyone who does bad things can just blame the United States as the real cause.

Jason,
Maybe you aren’t familiar with how the Khmer Rouge came to power in Cambodia. I’ll forgive your ignorance on this topic, since it’s not really a popular one in the Western media.

“The Reverend Jerry Falwell and I were arch enemies for fifteen years. We became involved in a lawsuit concerning First Amendment rights and Hustler magazine. Without question, this was my most important battle – the 1988 Hustler Magazine, Inc., v. Jerry Falwell case, where after millions of dollars and much deliberation, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled in my favor.

My mother always told me that no matter how much you dislike a person, when you meet them face to face you will find characteristics about them that you like. Jerry Falwell was a perfect example of that. I hated everything he stood for, but after meeting him in person, years after the trial, Jerry Falwell and I became good friends.

He would visit me in California and we would debate together on college campuses. I always appreciated his sincerity even though I knew what he was selling and he knew what I was selling.”

Farakkhan is not a lefty-he’s a muslim extremist who hates just about everyone. I highly doubt that anyone here sides with him just because he hates GW Bush. Just like I wouldn’t accuse anyone on the right here with siding with Timothy McVeigh because they also hate Janet Reno. Both assertions are patently absurd.

It is what happens in democracy.

If gun control becomes a movement then anti gun movement will swing into force.

When it was a moral issue then the force activated to oppose it was Christians/religion. It is the way Democracy works and it is the way democracy stabilizes itself and attains balance.

It will always happen as long as our form of government thrives.

When the far left screams….the far right neutralizes their screams. Its a harmonious balance. The rest of us live somewhere in the middle, content with what is because what could be is far worse. It is why we all Love America no matter which side of center we stand on.

kritter said: Jason – don’t act like the left alone does this- Holly just characterized Chomsky as evil a minute ago.

Holly as right-wing? Why? Simply because she doesn’t hate the war?

A militantly pro-choice, militantly gay rights, openly lesbian, openly athiest, etc., as the poster child of the right? If that is so, then I don’t EVER want to hear about the right not being an ‘open tent’ movement again!

What’s the difference between being hateful and evil? Just curious.

I’m not sure. I’m also not sure it’s relevant. Whether you want to use the term “hateful” or “evil” to describe Falwell isn’t the point. The problem I have is with how some want to react to that which they see as “hateful” or “evil”. When they react by mirroring that which they condemn, it’s hypocritical, in my opinion. And when they react by cheering for death or demanding its utter exclusion, then I think its dangerous.

I think the obligation of thinking people that care about liberty is to tolerate even the ideologically intolerable. The responsible reaction to “hateful evil” is to rebut it, not to kill its believers, wait for them to be killed, ask for them to be killed, or cheer their death.

“I am against using death as a punishment. I am also against using it as a reward.”

AND,

To quote Edna St. Vincent Millay:

The world stands out on either side
No wider than the heart is wide;
Above the world is stretched the sky,–
No higher than the soul is high.
The heart can push the sea and land
Farther away on either hand;
The soul can split the sky in two,
And let the face of God shine through.
But East and West will pinch the heart
That can not keep them pushed apart;
And he whose soul is flat–the sky
Will cave in on him by and by.

Respect and Critical Analysis don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

That we have a right do and say some things does not always make doing and saying them responsible or a positive contribution.

The problem I have with the demonization of Falwell has nothing to do with any support for the man or his positions. I found many of his beliefs and statements to be repugnant. But I get concerned when I see so many in our body politic willing to elevate ideological differences to such an extreme level of demonization that it seems to me that violence is not far off.

I’m not saying this about you, Elrod, but going through some of the comments on this thread about Falwell, I am struck by teh degree to which the nature of the hatred directed towards him seems easily applied to just about any ideological opponent. Look at how cosmoetica or Chris go beyond merely condemning Falwell to note the existence of others they find just as bad. And at the point that those ideological differences are considered to be so overwhelmingly important as to characterize anyone who holds those viewpoints as things like “scum”, is it really possible to have civil debates any more?

My concern is that many of Falwell’s enemies are just as filled with hatred, intolerance, and the potential for violence and repression as they claim he was. They are even more dangerous because they cloak themselves in the trappings of tolerance and liberalism, deceiving even themselves about the implications of their advocacy.

My biggest concern is that the discussions surrounding Falwell’s death indicate that the scenario of violence being used to target dehumanized ideological opponents used in Orson Scott Card’s book Empire might not really be so far off.

Jason,
What’s the difference between being hateful and evil? Just curious.