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	<title>Comments on: General Petraeus Writes Letter Condemning Torture</title>
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		<title>By: Somebody</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-80188</link>
		<dc:creator>Somebody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 13:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/#comment-80188</guid>
		<description>Hah thats funny Kritter.  Bill Clinton better thank his lucky stars that the BLOGG was not around during his 8 years as president.

He would have be exposed for the bumbling fumbling absolute MORON that he was.

But then LISTEN before you go off on a rant.

Every President to ever sit in the office would have been exposed to being HUMAN. A fumbler.  Bumbler.  Human Moron.

I trully feel for every president from here on out.  With 5 billion reporters on the job.  Geeze.  Bush is just the first to feel the wrath of the bloggers. We are a part of history here folks.  We are the pioneers of the New political sport...........BlogBall. 

Mark my words.  You will be moaning at the injustices and the LIES coming from the other side when YOUR MAN/WOMAN is sitting in the Oval office and those same 5 billion reporters are shredding Him/Her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hah thats funny Kritter.  Bill Clinton better thank his lucky stars that the BLOGG was not around during his 8 years as president.</p>
<p>He would have be exposed for the bumbling fumbling absolute MORON that he was.</p>
<p>But then LISTEN before you go off on a rant.</p>
<p>Every President to ever sit in the office would have been exposed to being HUMAN. A fumbler.  Bumbler.  Human Moron.</p>
<p>I trully feel for every president from here on out.  With 5 billion reporters on the job.  Geeze.  Bush is just the first to feel the wrath of the bloggers. We are a part of history here folks.  We are the pioneers of the New political sport&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..BlogBall. </p>
<p>Mark my words.  You will be moaning at the injustices and the LIES coming from the other side when YOUR MAN/WOMAN is sitting in the Oval office and those same 5 billion reporters are shredding Him/Her.</p>
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		<title>By: superdestroyer</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-80159</link>
		<dc:creator>superdestroyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 21:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/#comment-80159</guid>
		<description>kritter, 

Actually, it was Bob Woodward who first identified Clinton is not being a good manager.  Go read the book &quot;The Agenda&quot; and see how poor a manager that Clinton was as president.  However, Clinton was smart enough to manage the risk which is something that President Bush is not capable of doing. 

President Clinton alienated people on his staff, could not stay on a schedule, and thus learned to concentrate of how things would play in the media and to limit himself to small initiatives (midnight basketball anyone).  President Clinton also left entire segments of the goverment (education, energy, law enforcement) off the table.  If you look at eight years of the Clinton Administration, there are entire cabinet departments that were totally ignored.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kritter, </p>
<p>Actually, it was Bob Woodward who first identified Clinton is not being a good manager.  Go read the book &#8220;The Agenda&#8221; and see how poor a manager that Clinton was as president.  However, Clinton was smart enough to manage the risk which is something that President Bush is not capable of doing. </p>
<p>President Clinton alienated people on his staff, could not stay on a schedule, and thus learned to concentrate of how things would play in the media and to limit himself to small initiatives (midnight basketball anyone).  President Clinton also left entire segments of the goverment (education, energy, law enforcement) off the table.  If you look at eight years of the Clinton Administration, there are entire cabinet departments that were totally ignored.</p>
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		<title>By: kritter</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-80157</link>
		<dc:creator>kritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 20:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/#comment-80157</guid>
		<description>SD- I would appreciate it if you would not write posts that link President Clinton and your guy. One, while morally flawed, did a reasonably good job of managing the government, the other is a total incompetent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SD- I would appreciate it if you would not write posts that link President Clinton and your guy. One, while morally flawed, did a reasonably good job of managing the government, the other is a total incompetent.</p>
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		<title>By: superdestroyer</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-80156</link>
		<dc:creator>superdestroyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 19:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/#comment-80156</guid>
		<description>Rudi, 

Three and four star general do not write anything.  That is why they have staffs.  do one shoud believe that a President, Vice-president, a Department Secretary, or any high level government official every rights anything.

What probably happen is that General Petraeus told his staff to prepare a memo on prisoner torture.  some part of his staff such as general counsel, his staff group, or his public relations/civil affairs staff would have drafted the memo. The draft would then have been cirulated to all of the deputy chiefs of staff, someof the speical staff members, and finally his chief of staff and XO.  The draft would have then been sent for signature with probably mandated changes.  That is the way that the government works. 

While thinking about this, I keep thinking about how little most of the voters know about how the government works.  An important skill for presidents, cabinet secretaries, and other high level political appointees is to be able to managed large, diverse staffs.  I think everyone has come to realize that President Bush nor President Clinton were really capable of such management duties. They both left it to others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rudi, </p>
<p>Three and four star general do not write anything.  That is why they have staffs.  do one shoud believe that a President, Vice-president, a Department Secretary, or any high level government official every rights anything.</p>
<p>What probably happen is that General Petraeus told his staff to prepare a memo on prisoner torture.  some part of his staff such as general counsel, his staff group, or his public relations/civil affairs staff would have drafted the memo. The draft would then have been cirulated to all of the deputy chiefs of staff, someof the speical staff members, and finally his chief of staff and XO.  The draft would have then been sent for signature with probably mandated changes.  That is the way that the government works. </p>
<p>While thinking about this, I keep thinking about how little most of the voters know about how the government works.  An important skill for presidents, cabinet secretaries, and other high level political appointees is to be able to managed large, diverse staffs.  I think everyone has come to realize that President Bush nor President Clinton were really capable of such management duties. They both left it to others.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudi</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-80151</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 18:25:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/#comment-80151</guid>
		<description>SuperD - What makes you say Petraeus didn&#039;t write the letter. W&#039;s in trouble, his General is competent and a free thinker, will staff members come out and attack mon General?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SuperD &#8211; What makes you say Petraeus didn&#8217;t write the letter. W&#8217;s in trouble, his General is competent and a free thinker, will staff members come out and attack mon General?</p>
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		<title>By: CaseyL</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-80128</link>
		<dc:creator>CaseyL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 15:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/#comment-80128</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a good letter, and I&#039;m glad it was written, signed, and made public.

Now let&#039;s see if if the letter actually affects policy:  will the torture stop?  And, will people who did the torturing be prosecuted, or at least cashiered?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a good letter, and I&#8217;m glad it was written, signed, and made public.</p>
<p>Now let&#8217;s see if if the letter actually affects policy:  will the torture stop?  And, will people who did the torturing be prosecuted, or at least cashiered?</p>
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		<title>By: George Sorwell</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-80127</link>
		<dc:creator>George Sorwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 14:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/#comment-80127</guid>
		<description>Long, long overdue. 

Congratulations to General Petraeus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Long, long overdue. </p>
<p>Congratulations to General Petraeus.</p>
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		<title>By: mw</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-80125</link>
		<dc:creator>mw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 14:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/#comment-80125</guid>
		<description>For anyone who has perused the US Counterinsurgency Field Manual (co-authored by Petraeus) the strong stance in this letter is not a surprise.  He opposes these actions on both moral and tactical grounds.   

This from Chapter 1 Page 24:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;&quot;1-132. Illegitimate actions are those involving the use of power without authorityâ€”whether committed by government officials, security forces, or counterinsurgents. Such actions include unjustified or excessive use of force, unlawful detention, torture, and punishment without trial. Efforts to build a legitimate government though illegitimate actions are self-defeating, even against insurgents who conceal themselves
amid noncombatants and flout the law. Moreover, participation in COIN operations by U.S. forces must follow United States law, including domestic laws, treaties to which the United States is party, and certain HN laws. (See appendix D.) Any human rights abuses or legal violations committed by U.S. forces quickly become known throughout the local populace and eventually around the world. Illegitimate actions undermine both long- and short-term COIN efforts.

1-133. Every action by counterinsurgents leaves a â€œforensic traceâ€ that may be required sometime later in a court of law. Counterinsurgents document all their activities to preserve, wherever possible, a chain of evidence. Accurate documentation can also be an important means to counter insurgent propaganda.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The complete &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Petraeus&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;source document is downloadable as a PDF, linked from the Petraeus Wikipedia entry&lt;/a&gt;. I have no idea why the curent counterinsurgency playbook, written by the General in the field leading our conterinsergency effort in Iraq is so easily available.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For anyone who has perused the US Counterinsurgency Field Manual (co-authored by Petraeus) the strong stance in this letter is not a surprise.  He opposes these actions on both moral and tactical grounds.   </p>
<p>This from Chapter 1 Page 24:</p>
<blockquote><p><i>&#8220;1-132. Illegitimate actions are those involving the use of power without authorityâ€”whether committed by government officials, security forces, or counterinsurgents. Such actions include unjustified or excessive use of force, unlawful detention, torture, and punishment without trial. Efforts to build a legitimate government though illegitimate actions are self-defeating, even against insurgents who conceal themselves<br />
amid noncombatants and flout the law. Moreover, participation in COIN operations by U.S. forces must follow United States law, including domestic laws, treaties to which the United States is party, and certain HN laws. (See appendix D.) Any human rights abuses or legal violations committed by U.S. forces quickly become known throughout the local populace and eventually around the world. Illegitimate actions undermine both long- and short-term COIN efforts.</p>
<p>1-133. Every action by counterinsurgents leaves a â€œforensic traceâ€ that may be required sometime later in a court of law. Counterinsurgents document all their activities to preserve, wherever possible, a chain of evidence. Accurate documentation can also be an important means to counter insurgent propaganda.&#8221;</i></p></blockquote>
<p>The complete <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Petraeus" rel="nofollow">source document is downloadable as a PDF, linked from the Petraeus Wikipedia entry</a>. I have no idea why the curent counterinsurgency playbook, written by the General in the field leading our conterinsergency effort in Iraq is so easily available.</p>
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		<title>By: kritter</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-80122</link>
		<dc:creator>kritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 14:00:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/#comment-80122</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m very glad he signed the letter, but that doesn&#039;t alter the fact that he knowingly works for an administration that believes in it to the point of a signing statement that negates anti-torture legislation that was overwhelmingly passed by our Congress. Maybe he feels that his hands are clean simply because he signed the letter. I don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m very glad he signed the letter, but that doesn&#8217;t alter the fact that he knowingly works for an administration that believes in it to the point of a signing statement that negates anti-torture legislation that was overwhelmingly passed by our Congress. Maybe he feels that his hands are clean simply because he signed the letter. I don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Somebody</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-80118</link>
		<dc:creator>Somebody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 13:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/#comment-80118</guid>
		<description>&quot;Howard Cosell here.  Im with George Foreman between rounds as the Greatest, Floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee champ of all times is beating his brains out.&quot;

&quot;So tell me George what are you thinking as Mohamadi Ali is beating your brains out tonight.&quot;

&quot;Well I tell you Howard.  Mohamad Ali is the greatest.  He is the champ and I know I&#039;d like to punch back but if I do then the people are going to be mad.&quot;

&quot;So what is your strategy for the rest of the fight?&quot;

&quot;I would like to hit him back but I can&#039;t so I think I will just lean against the ropes and let him beat on me.  Occassionally I think Ill take a poke at him but Im just going to wait him out until the referee stops the fight.&quot;

&quot;Well I would wish you good luck George, but everyone knows I&#039;m rooting for the Champ.&quot;

&quot;Thanks Howard.  I don&#039;t know what I was thinking in taking this fight, but I&#039;m here now and if they wont let me punch back then I&#039;ll just take my whoopin like a man.  I will LOOSE but the fans will LOVE me and so will the CHAMP.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Howard Cosell here.  Im with George Foreman between rounds as the Greatest, Floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee champ of all times is beating his brains out.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;So tell me George what are you thinking as Mohamadi Ali is beating your brains out tonight.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Well I tell you Howard.  Mohamad Ali is the greatest.  He is the champ and I know I&#8217;d like to punch back but if I do then the people are going to be mad.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;So what is your strategy for the rest of the fight?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;I would like to hit him back but I can&#8217;t so I think I will just lean against the ropes and let him beat on me.  Occassionally I think Ill take a poke at him but Im just going to wait him out until the referee stops the fight.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Well I would wish you good luck George, but everyone knows I&#8217;m rooting for the Champ.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Thanks Howard.  I don&#8217;t know what I was thinking in taking this fight, but I&#8217;m here now and if they wont let me punch back then I&#8217;ll just take my whoopin like a man.  I will LOOSE but the fans will LOVE me and so will the CHAMP.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Michael van der Galien</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-80113</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael van der Galien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 11:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/#comment-80113</guid>
		<description>Well, that&#039;s 100% irrelevant isn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that&#8217;s 100% irrelevant isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: superdestroyer</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-80112</link>
		<dc:creator>superdestroyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 11:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/12764/general-petreaus-writes-letter-condemning-torture/#comment-80112</guid>
		<description>A small nitpick but General Petreaus did not really write the letter.  He signed a letter that was probably drafted by his command counsel and reviewed by dozens of people. 

I find it odd that people keep believing that CEO types actually do detailed type work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A small nitpick but General Petreaus did not really write the letter.  He signed a letter that was probably drafted by his command counsel and reviewed by dozens of people. </p>
<p>I find it odd that people keep believing that CEO types actually do detailed type work.</p>
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