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	<title>Comments on: Dutch Martyrs</title>
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		<title>By: kritter</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12657/dutch-martyrs/comment-page-1/#comment-79291</link>
		<dc:creator>kritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 23:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/immigration/12657/dutch-martyrs/#comment-79291</guid>
		<description>&quot;I argue that sensitiviy to othersâ€™ feelings is still important and should not be trampled on carelessly in the pursuit of oneâ€™s personal truth speaking. &quot;

I agree that sensitivity should be maintained. A lot of people who argue against political correctness, then use that argument as a license to say whatever is on their minds -offensive or not. But, OTOH,  there is nothing wrong with using the same standards to judge everyone- with some allowances of course. I don&#039;t believe in suspending one&#039;s judgement just to avoid hurt feelings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I argue that sensitiviy to othersâ€™ feelings is still important and should not be trampled on carelessly in the pursuit of oneâ€™s personal truth speaking. &#8221;</p>
<p>I agree that sensitivity should be maintained. A lot of people who argue against political correctness, then use that argument as a license to say whatever is on their minds -offensive or not. But, OTOH,  there is nothing wrong with using the same standards to judge everyone- with some allowances of course. I don&#8217;t believe in suspending one&#8217;s judgement just to avoid hurt feelings.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12657/dutch-martyrs/comment-page-1/#comment-79270</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 19:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/immigration/12657/dutch-martyrs/#comment-79270</guid>
		<description>MVDG-
From my posititon on this issue, I will try to be sensitive to your past experiences when I argue about the overuse of the &quot;political correctness&#039; label. :)

PS  Did you ever read &quot;Politics and the English Language&quot; by Orwell?  (HaHaHa)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MVDG-<br />
From my posititon on this issue, I will try to be sensitive to your past experiences when I argue about the overuse of the &#8220;political correctness&#8217; label. <img src='http://themoderatevoice.com/wordpress-engine/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>PS  Did you ever read &#8220;Politics and the English Language&#8221; by Orwell?  (HaHaHa)</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12657/dutch-martyrs/comment-page-1/#comment-79265</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 18:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/immigration/12657/dutch-martyrs/#comment-79265</guid>
		<description>CS-
No one is arguing the &#039;when political correctness runs amock&#039; theme.  It&#039;s been stated and restated in many different ways. WE ALL AGREE.

In fact, I was attempting to look more broadly at the issue precisely because eveyone agrees so much.  When everyone is marching in the same direction, it becomes too easy to lose track of the direction in which they&#039;re marching.

I argue that sensitiviy to others&#039; feelings is still important and should not be trampled on carelessly in the pursuit of one&#039;s personal truth speaking. My position favors being sensitive to the feelings of religious people like you, for example.  

I extend this consideration to people with other core issues.  I understand why blacks are more sensitive to issues of racism and Jews to issues of anti-semitism. 

The main theme of &#039;political correctness has been settled.  Now let&#039;s look at some subtexts. One of those subtexts is consideration of others&#039; feelings and the willingness by some to paint consideration as a moral failing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CS-<br />
No one is arguing the &#8216;when political correctness runs amock&#8217; theme.  It&#8217;s been stated and restated in many different ways. WE ALL AGREE.</p>
<p>In fact, I was attempting to look more broadly at the issue precisely because eveyone agrees so much.  When everyone is marching in the same direction, it becomes too easy to lose track of the direction in which they&#8217;re marching.</p>
<p>I argue that sensitiviy to others&#8217; feelings is still important and should not be trampled on carelessly in the pursuit of one&#8217;s personal truth speaking. My position favors being sensitive to the feelings of religious people like you, for example.  </p>
<p>I extend this consideration to people with other core issues.  I understand why blacks are more sensitive to issues of racism and Jews to issues of anti-semitism. </p>
<p>The main theme of &#8216;political correctness has been settled.  Now let&#8217;s look at some subtexts. One of those subtexts is consideration of others&#8217; feelings and the willingness by some to paint consideration as a moral failing.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael van der Galien</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12657/dutch-martyrs/comment-page-1/#comment-79262</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael van der Galien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 18:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/immigration/12657/dutch-martyrs/#comment-79262</guid>
		<description>I think that a lot of Americans do not understand what the situation was like in the Netherlands. Political correctness ruled: one really could not say ANYTHING that could be considered insulting, offending etc. It was greatly done, it was very very frustrating. We are still struggling with it, but the situation has greatly improved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that a lot of Americans do not understand what the situation was like in the Netherlands. Political correctness ruled: one really could not say ANYTHING that could be considered insulting, offending etc. It was greatly done, it was very very frustrating. We are still struggling with it, but the situation has greatly improved.</p>
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		<title>By: C Stanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12657/dutch-martyrs/comment-page-1/#comment-79255</link>
		<dc:creator>C Stanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 18:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/immigration/12657/dutch-martyrs/#comment-79255</guid>
		<description>Jim,
I completely agree with you about the issue of beliefs not being enshrined in law (I think blue laws are ridiculous and I&#039;m glad most of them are finally being repealed).

And maybe you are not one who says that it&#039;s not OK for Christians to state opinions on whether behavior is right or wrong, but there are plenty of people who are critical of that. If the shoe doesn&#039;t fit, then don&#039;t wear it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim,<br />
I completely agree with you about the issue of beliefs not being enshrined in law (I think blue laws are ridiculous and I&#8217;m glad most of them are finally being repealed).</p>
<p>And maybe you are not one who says that it&#8217;s not OK for Christians to state opinions on whether behavior is right or wrong, but there are plenty of people who are critical of that. If the shoe doesn&#8217;t fit, then don&#8217;t wear it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Satterfield</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12657/dutch-martyrs/comment-page-1/#comment-79254</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Satterfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 18:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/immigration/12657/dutch-martyrs/#comment-79254</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know anyone who minds when a religious person says that something is bad or sinful. I do mind when they try to put that into law. I remember when blue laws were so pervasive that if you had a fuse blow in your house on Sunday and had forgotten to have a spare on hand you were stuck until Monday. There are the laws saying that liquor sales are OK...but not on Sunday. The only reason for these laws were the religious beliefs of some people being forced on others by the state. 

There are lots of people in the world who think this is OK. Most of them aren&#039;t Christians and are heartily criticized by many American Christians who want to do some of the same things here. While there are most certainly large differences of degree the core belief is the same. And that belief is &quot;My religion is so good and right that it&#039;s OK to make a law so the government can force everyone to follow some of its tenets.&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know anyone who minds when a religious person says that something is bad or sinful. I do mind when they try to put that into law. I remember when blue laws were so pervasive that if you had a fuse blow in your house on Sunday and had forgotten to have a spare on hand you were stuck until Monday. There are the laws saying that liquor sales are OK&#8230;but not on Sunday. The only reason for these laws were the religious beliefs of some people being forced on others by the state. </p>
<p>There are lots of people in the world who think this is OK. Most of them aren&#8217;t Christians and are heartily criticized by many American Christians who want to do some of the same things here. While there are most certainly large differences of degree the core belief is the same. And that belief is &#8220;My religion is so good and right that it&#8217;s OK to make a law so the government can force everyone to follow some of its tenets.&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: C Stanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12657/dutch-martyrs/comment-page-1/#comment-79252</link>
		<dc:creator>C Stanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 17:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/immigration/12657/dutch-martyrs/#comment-79252</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;We teach children to be polite, i.e. â€˜correctâ€™: that itâ€™s not polite to point out that a classmate has pimples even when this is true. We teach children to consider how our words will affect another. We do, in fact, try to enforce a sense of correctness on behavior, and itâ€™s often the glue that holds a society together.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree, but on the other hand there are times when it isn&#039;t impolite to point out that someone has pimples (a dermatologist speaking to a patient, for example). And since adults can make this distinction, we ought to be able to do it in our political speech as well. When political correctness runs amok, what is happening is that society is assuming that we&#039;re all children who can&#039;t think beyond the &#039;rules&#039; of politeness, and also making the assumption that politeness is more important than freedom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>We teach children to be polite, i.e. â€˜correctâ€™: that itâ€™s not polite to point out that a classmate has pimples even when this is true. We teach children to consider how our words will affect another. We do, in fact, try to enforce a sense of correctness on behavior, and itâ€™s often the glue that holds a society together.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree, but on the other hand there are times when it isn&#8217;t impolite to point out that someone has pimples (a dermatologist speaking to a patient, for example). And since adults can make this distinction, we ought to be able to do it in our political speech as well. When political correctness runs amok, what is happening is that society is assuming that we&#8217;re all children who can&#8217;t think beyond the &#8216;rules&#8217; of politeness, and also making the assumption that politeness is more important than freedom.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12657/dutch-martyrs/comment-page-1/#comment-79251</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 17:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/immigration/12657/dutch-martyrs/#comment-79251</guid>
		<description>CS-
There are many angles from which to look at this, of course.  I&#039;ll just refer to one of the numerous concepts you brought up: encorcing correctness.

We teach children to be polite, i.e. &#039;correct&#039;:  that it&#039;s not polite to point out that a classmate has pimples even when this is true. We teach children to consider how our words will affect another.  We do, in fact, try to enforce a sense of correctness on behavior, and it&#039;s often the glue that holds a society together.

Today, &#039;correctness&#039; has come to refer only to the cases where the concept has been extended to a degree that it impedes the ability to discuss anything honestly.  

When correctness goes too far, I agree wholeheartedly that it&#039;s a detriment to social debate and problem solving.  What I regret is that this narrow focus is creating another extreme: that politeness and consideration are seen as negatives.
My point was and is that we need to be more careful as we negotiate the language road to understanding the issues at the heart of any matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CS-<br />
There are many angles from which to look at this, of course.  I&#8217;ll just refer to one of the numerous concepts you brought up: encorcing correctness.</p>
<p>We teach children to be polite, i.e. &#8216;correct&#8217;:  that it&#8217;s not polite to point out that a classmate has pimples even when this is true. We teach children to consider how our words will affect another.  We do, in fact, try to enforce a sense of correctness on behavior, and it&#8217;s often the glue that holds a society together.</p>
<p>Today, &#8216;correctness&#8217; has come to refer only to the cases where the concept has been extended to a degree that it impedes the ability to discuss anything honestly.  </p>
<p>When correctness goes too far, I agree wholeheartedly that it&#8217;s a detriment to social debate and problem solving.  What I regret is that this narrow focus is creating another extreme: that politeness and consideration are seen as negatives.<br />
My point was and is that we need to be more careful as we negotiate the language road to understanding the issues at the heart of any matter.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12657/dutch-martyrs/comment-page-1/#comment-79248</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 17:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/immigration/12657/dutch-martyrs/#comment-79248</guid>
		<description>Lynx 
said about the misuse of the word &#039;racism:
&quot;It also has the added effect of giving cover to real racism&quot;
---
I agree  
What I begin to see, though, is that the same thing is happening 
with the overuse and misuse of the &#039;political correctness&#039; label.
Unfortunately, I&#039;m very bad at finding the exact correct words to express what I mean, so I&#039;m no help in refining the language. However, I wish the more adept among us would begin to look for more precise ways to describe this social phenomenon.
Again, this is not a comment about the concept but about how we talk about it.  How we label affects the way we think, which is the reason I pay attention and contemplate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lynx<br />
said about the misuse of the word &#8216;racism:<br />
&#8220;It also has the added effect of giving cover to real racism&#8221;<br />
&#8212;<br />
I agree<br />
What I begin to see, though, is that the same thing is happening<br />
with the overuse and misuse of the &#8216;political correctness&#8217; label.<br />
Unfortunately, I&#8217;m very bad at finding the exact correct words to express what I mean, so I&#8217;m no help in refining the language. However, I wish the more adept among us would begin to look for more precise ways to describe this social phenomenon.<br />
Again, this is not a comment about the concept but about how we talk about it.  How we label affects the way we think, which is the reason I pay attention and contemplate.</p>
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		<title>By: C Stanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12657/dutch-martyrs/comment-page-1/#comment-79246</link>
		<dc:creator>C Stanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 16:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/immigration/12657/dutch-martyrs/#comment-79246</guid>
		<description>The thing about political correctness is that it is a version of trying to impose your own moral code on others. People who are secular feel that religious people do this when we say that one form of behavior is good and another form is bad or sinful. Then some of the same people who are bothered by that are the ones who will say that we have to condemn certain kinds of speech because the speech is impolite, offensive, bigoted, or what have you. (I&#039;m not directing this at you personally, Doma, just speaking in generalities.)

Basically, if you don&#039;t think certain remarks are polite, then no one is forcing you to speak that way (isn&#039;t that the way the argument always goes against enforcing religious beliefs?) We all wish for people to behave in ways that we think are correct, but the reality is that we shouldn&#039;t try to enforce what we see as &#039;correct&#039; behavior on others. First of all, they may have a different viewpoint on what is correct, and second, even if they show no inclination toward trying to behave correctly it&#039;s not our place to force them to behave differently. In a free society we have to respect the right of others even to be jerks.

The way I see it, politeness certainly is the correct way to behave and I wish for all people to behave that way, but I don&#039;t want that at the expense of freedom. So, I have no problem with someone expressing condemnation of certain types of speech as long as the condemnation isn&#039;t in the form of regulation of the offensive speech (as in university speech codes) or in the form of trying to censor by ostracizing the people who speak in the way that you find offensive. 

And it also gets ridiculous at times when the definition of what is polite or non-offensive gets stretched to include things that are not impolite at all. That&#039;s how I see this example about immigration: because some people who are bigoted might speak badly about immigrants doesn&#039;t mean that someone else who is speaking the truth about a problem with immigrants not assimilating is being bigoted. It&#039;s that broad brush that is the problem; another situation like that would be here in the US, because some bigoted people might say that a black man is articulate and express this in such a way to show surprise (as though this is a remarkable exception, because this person thinks that most black people are inarticulate), then someone else who is not bigoted can&#039;t even compliment a black man with that adjective without being accused of a non-PC remark.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing about political correctness is that it is a version of trying to impose your own moral code on others. People who are secular feel that religious people do this when we say that one form of behavior is good and another form is bad or sinful. Then some of the same people who are bothered by that are the ones who will say that we have to condemn certain kinds of speech because the speech is impolite, offensive, bigoted, or what have you. (I&#8217;m not directing this at you personally, Doma, just speaking in generalities.)</p>
<p>Basically, if you don&#8217;t think certain remarks are polite, then no one is forcing you to speak that way (isn&#8217;t that the way the argument always goes against enforcing religious beliefs?) We all wish for people to behave in ways that we think are correct, but the reality is that we shouldn&#8217;t try to enforce what we see as &#8216;correct&#8217; behavior on others. First of all, they may have a different viewpoint on what is correct, and second, even if they show no inclination toward trying to behave correctly it&#8217;s not our place to force them to behave differently. In a free society we have to respect the right of others even to be jerks.</p>
<p>The way I see it, politeness certainly is the correct way to behave and I wish for all people to behave that way, but I don&#8217;t want that at the expense of freedom. So, I have no problem with someone expressing condemnation of certain types of speech as long as the condemnation isn&#8217;t in the form of regulation of the offensive speech (as in university speech codes) or in the form of trying to censor by ostracizing the people who speak in the way that you find offensive. </p>
<p>And it also gets ridiculous at times when the definition of what is polite or non-offensive gets stretched to include things that are not impolite at all. That&#8217;s how I see this example about immigration: because some people who are bigoted might speak badly about immigrants doesn&#8217;t mean that someone else who is speaking the truth about a problem with immigrants not assimilating is being bigoted. It&#8217;s that broad brush that is the problem; another situation like that would be here in the US, because some bigoted people might say that a black man is articulate and express this in such a way to show surprise (as though this is a remarkable exception, because this person thinks that most black people are inarticulate), then someone else who is not bigoted can&#8217;t even compliment a black man with that adjective without being accused of a non-PC remark.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynx</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12657/dutch-martyrs/comment-page-1/#comment-79238</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 15:26:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/immigration/12657/dutch-martyrs/#comment-79238</guid>
		<description>&quot;I support honest and straightforward talk, but not an unnecessarily confrontational, insulting or insensitive style.&quot;

And the border between one and the other lies where, exactly? There are areas where almost anyone can agree; banning Bah bah black sheep as racist is absurd, and calling for the death of all homosexuals is clearly bigoted. However there is a VAST gray area in between. In Spain, saying that crime has gone up because of immigration will get you labeled as a racist, even though it&#039;s actually true, but considered &quot;insensitive&quot;. Sarkozy called the the youths burning cars and throwing rocks at firefighters &quot;scum&quot;. I agree wholeheartedly, but others thought his words unnecessarily insensitive. 

I can see where &quot;political correctness&quot; can tire you, but I&#039;ll tell you another word that gets tiresome; racist. Unlike political correctness, calling someone a racist is a grave insult, and is supposed to scare you into silence. I think THAT label is actually doing more harm than the political correctness label. It also has the added effect of giving cover to real racism, as people are beginning to tune out when they hear &quot;racist!&quot; uttered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I support honest and straightforward talk, but not an unnecessarily confrontational, insulting or insensitive style.&#8221;</p>
<p>And the border between one and the other lies where, exactly? There are areas where almost anyone can agree; banning Bah bah black sheep as racist is absurd, and calling for the death of all homosexuals is clearly bigoted. However there is a VAST gray area in between. In Spain, saying that crime has gone up because of immigration will get you labeled as a racist, even though it&#8217;s actually true, but considered &#8220;insensitive&#8221;. Sarkozy called the the youths burning cars and throwing rocks at firefighters &#8220;scum&#8221;. I agree wholeheartedly, but others thought his words unnecessarily insensitive. </p>
<p>I can see where &#8220;political correctness&#8221; can tire you, but I&#8217;ll tell you another word that gets tiresome; racist. Unlike political correctness, calling someone a racist is a grave insult, and is supposed to scare you into silence. I think THAT label is actually doing more harm than the political correctness label. It also has the added effect of giving cover to real racism, as people are beginning to tune out when they hear &#8220;racist!&#8221; uttered.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/12657/dutch-martyrs/comment-page-1/#comment-79234</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 14:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/immigration/12657/dutch-martyrs/#comment-79234</guid>
		<description>While I AGREE with the gist of the message in this post, I am beginning to break out in a rash when I see the &#039;political correctness&#039; label.  It&#039;s everywhere these days, like an ad for the newest brand of soft drink, and spills over in rhetoric to mean an ever increasing array of situations. When used as an epithet,  it often just means &#039;you don&#039;t agree with me, and therefore you are being politically correct (i.e. stupid).
Correctness is very much akin to politeness, and polite behavior and speech I very much endorse.  I find no fault with being sensitive to the feelings of others.
I support honest and straightforward talk, but not an unnecessarily confrontational, insulting or insensitive style.  Since my position, too, is lately being swept up in the &#039;political correctness&#039; vacuum bag, I long for the coining of new labels to differentiate between the many shades of the civility to brutality spectrum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I AGREE with the gist of the message in this post, I am beginning to break out in a rash when I see the &#8216;political correctness&#8217; label.  It&#8217;s everywhere these days, like an ad for the newest brand of soft drink, and spills over in rhetoric to mean an ever increasing array of situations. When used as an epithet,  it often just means &#8216;you don&#8217;t agree with me, and therefore you are being politically correct (i.e. stupid).<br />
Correctness is very much akin to politeness, and polite behavior and speech I very much endorse.  I find no fault with being sensitive to the feelings of others.<br />
I support honest and straightforward talk, but not an unnecessarily confrontational, insulting or insensitive style.  Since my position, too, is lately being swept up in the &#8216;political correctness&#8217; vacuum bag, I long for the coining of new labels to differentiate between the many shades of the civility to brutality spectrum.</p>
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