Former Saudi Ambassador Threatens Breach in U.S.-Saudi Relations
With a U.N. vote looming on Palestinian statehood, a former ambassador from Saudi Arabia is threatening a breach in U.S.-Saudi relations if Washington vetoes the resolution.
Saudi leaders would be forced by domestic and regional pressures to adopt a far more independent and assertive foreign policy. Like our recent military support for Bahrain’s monarchy, which America opposed, Saudi Arabia would pursue other policies at odds with those of the United States, including opposing the government of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki in Iraq and refusing to open an embassy there despite American pressure to do so. The Saudi government might part ways with Washington in Afghanistan and Yemen as well.
The language is unusually blunt, indicating that the Saudis feel they have a strong hand against a diplomatically weak America. The Obama Administration’s tacit support for the so-called “Arab Spring” revolutions has carried a cost — and this is it.
What is missing, however, is any real argument about how recognizing Palestinian statehood would substantively advance the peace process or serve American or Israeli interests. Those points are asserted, but there are no supporting explanations.
The danger with recognizing Palestinian statehood is that it would give yet another weapon to anti-Israel fanatics such as Hamas and Hezbollah, along with their supporters and enablers in the so-called “international community.” The United Nations is already a frequent forum for the most grotesque forms of anti-Semitism and double standards are routinely deployed to condemn from Israel any response to the terrorist attacks from Hamas and Hezbollah that are themselves treated as barely even worth comment. Turkey and Egypt have recently been moving away from peaceful cooperation with Israel and towards direct confrontation.
Is it any wonder that many in Israel feel forced into a defensive crouch, convinced that the whole world is aligned against them and that the whole world could care less if Hamas and Hezbollah were to achieve their openly declared goals of genocide?
That said, the argument in favor of Palestinian statehood is potentially persuasive even to those who support Israel. Although it is true that a Palestinian state would be able to use the U.N. as an additional forum for anti-Israel harassment, the U.N. is already doing that most of the time. There is little additional harm that can be done on that front. And an internationally recognized Palestinian state could be held formally to the rules of international law in a way that Palestine’s current ambiguous status has made impossible.
Too bad Palestine’s supporters couldn’t focus on that instead of making threats.
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I have less affection for either, than I have affinity for the UN.
“Is it any wonder that many in Israel feel forced into a defensive crouch, convinced that the whole world is aligned against them and that the whole world could care less if Hamas and Hezbollah were to achieve their openly declared goals of genocide?”
Yup. Any Israeli that thinks like that isn’t in a ‘defensive crouch’, but in a paranoid and dangerous state. If *I* was convinced the whole world was out to get me and didn’t cared if I lived or died, I would be put on a pill regime lest I killed someone or myself. LOL.
If as many Israeli civilians had died over the years as in Lebanese or Palestinian ones, then we would never hear an end to the Holocaust references.
Israelis have a right to be upset and defend themselves but I’m just not going to listen to “ABLOO ABLOO ABLOO It’ll be the Holocaust all over again if you don’t stop criticizing us!” Israel has way too enabling and dogged supporters.
Once Saudi Arabia realizes that it, too, is on the chopping block for Iran they will come back screaming for us to assist them. Meanwhile, the West is ignoring the spreading presence of Iran in the West. What comes to my mind when I think about Iranian expansion is Hezbollah, IRCS, support of terrorism, and a staunch opposing view towards America. Ahmedinijad is easily one of the more pressing threats America faces for the near to midterm as Iran expands its presence in Ecuador, Venezuela, and Cuba.
http://msmignoresit.blogspot.com/2011/09/iranian-expansion.html
I am all for getting tough with Saudi Arabia.
We should have gotten tough with them ten years and one day ago (instead of with Iraq).
After all, that’s the country the 9/11 hijackers came from, including Osama Bin Laden, whom a guy named Obama finally set straight.
I am strongly in favor of the UN recognizing a Palestinian state this month. Whether we or Israel likes it or not the Israeli/Palestinian conflict resonates with the common arab. Part of the reason is Al Jazeera and other arab media focus on the issue so arabs have an almost daily reminder.
I have traveled extensively in the mideast and speak passable arabic. In coffee house and cafe discussions most arabs simply cannot understand the US support for continuing to hold the Palestinian people stateless for 44 years. They understand how we stood against South Africa holding blacks stateless – why are Palestinians treated differently. Frankly, their position is let the Palestinians have a state or give them Israeli citizenship. It’s hard to argue with that.
The longer Israel holds on to that territory the more it becomes an outcast in the world of nations. For a small country dependent on exports, this could be devastating to Israel. Furthermore, the emmigration of Israel’s best and brightest is already a problem and I have many Israeli friends who are in the process of getting, or renewing, their alternate passports.
Israel is stubbornly pursuing a path that will lead to a hollowing out of the country. Obviously it will take decades for this to happen but the outcome is inevitable UNLESS Israel changes direction.
I have mentioned before that Netanyahu and his right wing coalition will NOT allow a viable Palestinian state. In talks with ordinary Israelis they have made very clear that the Palestinians can have 4 autonomous zones (basically their major cities) with all ingress and egress of people and product controlled by Israel. That was made crystal clear to Abbas in the one negotiation session he had with Netanyahu last year. That is why Abbas has not gone back to negotiations – it’s useless and the US has not come up with a way for the gigantic gulf to be bridged.
Israel gets picked on unfairly by the UN and many other nations. It suffers from hypocritical criticism from all corners. This is NOT due to anti-semitism, for the most part, but simply because Israel and it’s people hold themselves out to be faultless. They simply cannot admit to any errors ever. I know this is a generalization and as such has some truth and some error but it is the closest I can come to identifying the problem. It is almost a national religion among Israelis to avoid being a “frier” (ie sucker).
Avoiding being a frier imposes limitations on the amount of risk Israel will take. This limitation means negotiating to avoid a public relations embarrassment as opposed to strategic or justice considerations.
Having traveled the world as an American and as an Israeli Jew, I am convinced that anti-semitism is a small part of Israel’s image problem. However, the conflict with the Palestinians is a giant bullseye on Israels’ back for each and everyone to take their pot shots. Resolving the conflict removes the bullseye.
jdledell, you assume that granting Palestinian statehood (or any other concession by Israel) would “resolve the conflict.” But what if Hamas and Hezbollah are sincere in their desire to utterly eliminate the Israeli state and kill every Jew living in the Middle East? Can such a conflict ever be “resolved”?
@ jdledell,
Great overview and update on the current Israeli / Palestinian situation.
With all the “What If’s” and mis-information going around it’s nice that you take the time to keep us posted.
@jdledell: I cannot agree with you that we should recognize a Palestinian State until the time that a) those whose families went to Israel during the time that the first Zionists transformed a desert wasteland into what is now the State of Israel; b) all parties that can be involved forswear both refusal to recognize Israel as a legitimate state, and terrorism; and c) until any terrorist groups are barred under Palestinian law from ever serving in the government in any way, including groups including former terrorists (meaning such groups as Hamas, and Hezbollah, as well as groups formed by their leadership).
We absolutely should recognize a Palestinian State, but only once they have met the conditions above, and have forsworn terrorism, or government by terrorist groups, and have expelled those who engage in, or would engage in, terrorism.
Logan – I can’t speak to Hezballah too much since I have never met any of their people. But it seems to me Hezballah is more interested in getting Lebanon into a conservative Islamic state and assisting its people. The Lebanese people never had much quarrel with Jews and prior to 1948 there was extensive commerce between Jews in Israel and Lebanon.
Since 1948 things changed because of all the Palestinian refugees flooding into Lebanon. Remember, Lebanon did not participate in any of the wars against Israel. Sheik Nassrallah ‘s rhetoric is not much different than Chief Rabbi Ovadia Yosef.
I have met numerous Hamas members – some I would consider not only dangerous but evil and others who are totally pragmatic. The Hamas leadership is vocally quite disgusting but the Palestinian people are not. For example in Gaza, Hamas has about 5,000 fighters out of a population of 1.5 million.
Forget the rhetoric coming out of either Hamas or Hezballah – neither one of these organizations has even a millionth of a percentage chance of annihilating the Jewish people of Israel. In an existential battle Israel would crush them. I still suggest you go to shul in the West Bank to hear rhetoric equal to the worst of Hamas or Hezballah. That rhetoric is no more plausible than Hamas’.
PJBFan – You want to ban Hamas participation in a Palestinian government? Why the double standards? Israel sure put a lot of their terrorists in the government. Remember Begin and Shamir who were stone cold killers served as Prime Ministers. I know because my Irgun grandfather served with Begin and I have a recvord of all the atrocities committed by Irgun as well as some by Lehi. Israel came into being as a result of terrorism – good grief.
If it is true that Hamas has little real influence and the majority of the Palestinian people seek peace, then concessions would work. But that is a conditional statement based on a premise that is not certain, especially in light of Hamas winning the last election in Gaza and in light of the fact that no Jew can travel safely in any Hamas-controlled area.
The fact that Israel would win an “existential” conflict seems irrelevant in light of the continuing support, or at least acceptance, among Israel’s many international enemies and critics of Hamas’ strategy of simply bleeding Israel bit by bit.
Unless Hamas would be willing to actually reform in response to Israeli concessions, what possible motivation does Israel have to make concessions in the first place? This is the fundamental question I can never get Israel’s critics and enemies to directly answer. They simply keep changing the subject whenever it is posed.
JD and MS. thanks, good insightful information.
I sure hope the State Dept. has some leverage over some of the more extreme of all of these groups. What a mess.
“Unless Hamas would be willing to actually reform in response to Israeli concessions, what possible motivation does Israel have to make concessions in the first place?”
Logan – Why must Hamas reform? What Israel needs is a peace treaty with the Palestinians, including Hamas. The treaty calls for a clear MUTUAL non-aggression pact by the two parties. How the Palestinians decide to govern themselves and what their culture and religion entails is none of Israel’s business.
Look a majority of Israelis HATE Palestinians with a passion matched only by Palestinian hatred of Israelis. The peace treaty is going to require both parties LOVE each other? Ain’t going to happen. Both Israelis and Palestinians are going to have to change in order for the peace to last.
For your edification, Israeli and American Jewish peace advocates are visiting Gaza all the time. I regularly visit Palestinian towns all over the West Bank where I have friends and so do a lot of Jews. There are restaurants in Ramallah that get jammed with Jews.
Hamas and Hezballah support by the people comes from their social support efforts as well as the dignity of standing up to power.
Remember Palestinians have been downtrodden for many decades and Hamas belligerence resonates with the common people. The Jews felt the same way in their troubled times. That is why Irgun and Lehi were so popular.
Remember, neither the Jews or the Palestinians are bad people – they need a divorce and for each the ability to go their own way. A viable and just two state solution is the divorce decree.
The hope that doing so would enable Hamas to sell its people a policy they can’t sell today. They can’t sell the idea of acting like civilized neighbors while they’re under Israel’s boot.
jdledell,
I think you are just begging the question. Why should we believe Hamas would ever agree to, let alone comply with, a peace treaty pledging non-aggression? Why should Israel make concessions without any reciprocation in the mere HOPE that doing so might lead to a FUTURE agreement that would required ADDITIONAL Israeli concessions?
When Israel left Gaza, Hamas merely moved their missile bases forward and resumed their bombardment. I think that is very telling.
“When Israel left Gaza, Hamas merely moved their missile bases forward and resumed their bombardment. I think that is very telling.”
The occupation of Gaza is not the only legitimate gripe Palestinians have with Israel, so whatever.
Logan – All peace agreements are based on hope. There are no guarantees in Life or in relations between states. The best guarantees are not what is written on a piece of paper but that the respective societies find peace more attractive than war.
This is what was missing from the Gaza withdrawal. Sharon made a unilateral move rather than negotiate a peace agreement. He did this because maintaining a military presence in Gaza to protect the settlers was too expensive. He avoided a peace agreement so Israel could keep Judea and Samaria.
Israel left Gaza but the occupation of Gaza continued. Israel still severely limited and controlled what went in and what went out. You can’t maintain an economy smuggling stuff in tunnels.
The Palestinians understand that the occupation of their people continues. If the Chinese occupied the West Coast of America and decided to withdraw from Oregon do you really think Americans or the population of Oregon would stop fighting the Chinese to eliminate the Chinese occupation? That is the same thing as Gaza and the West Bank.
jdledell, when your enemies have openly and officially declared genocide to be their goal, hope is too thin of a reed to rely upon. I think Israel is quite correct to insist that those proclamations be recanted before any other issues are up for negotiation. Genocide is not a negotiating chip, and any entity that embraces it forfeits any presumption of good faith.
I am partially Jewish (not from my mother’s side, so such might be contested) and have always had the deepest respect and admiration for Israel and its people.
Yet, I always find it fascinating to read the reasoned comments by jledell, an American and an Israeli Jew, who has extensively traveled the region and who has so much insight into the human aspects of this never-ending conflict—aspects we should perhaps pay more attention to than the so-called “geo-political” crap.
I hope that you will continue to enlighten us, jledell.
I have decided to take a quick look at the House Foreign Appropriations Subcommittee. Kay Granger chairs it and I support much of the draft proposals. take a look and tell me how you feel by clicking ads on the site. Thank you
http://msmignoresit.blogspot.com/2011/09/foreign-appropriations-subcommittee.html?m=1
Seconded, Dorian.