As for “moral relativism,” morality has always been relative to the resident powers of palace and pulpit, defining their take on things as pristine, and charging opponents with moral relativism.

When we learn just how relative things are, we might also learn how to speak civilly with one another.

However

Kritter the assesment of where we went wrong in Iraq on WMDS was screamed down by the Antiwar as somehow giving Bush a pass.

Assessment

The sanctions which we felt were not working, worked. In fact they worked so good that Iraq literally was NOT able to make WMDS of any kind. They worked so good it was why the French were helping Saddam behind the worlds back. They were working so good that the UN secretary general was taking kickbacks from Saddam to help over look some of the sanctions.

However this was screamed down because it would appear as if Bush was being given a pass on his Stupidity for attacking IRAQ.

It is why this time around sanctions are going to be allowed to work on IRAN. Sanctions work better then anyone has ever dreamed. Look at North Korea. Look at Iran. Both country’s are trying to start wars because they feel its the only way they can survive in the face of sanctions.

Sanctions are meant for the country to give up its evil ways that have brought about sanctions. Neither country want to do so. Both will hold onto power and attempt in the next year to start wars. It is why the USA blustered outloud but let the hostage crisis play out. They do not want war. They can defeat IRAN with sanctions.

The war on terror was about deafeating the ability to fund terror. You cannot defeat terrorism but you can defeat the sponsors of terror. You can turn a worldwide Jihad into a crime wave, not a war. Defeating funding is the key to attaining that goal.

If you look at it in that context it is working quite well. North Korea and Iran the two primary sponsors of terror are on the verge of bankruptacy. Defeating Saddam Hussein cut off the desire for Palestinians to suicide bomb inside Israel. Cutting off funding to Hamas led Palestine has caused them to turn to Abbas to form a coalition government and join the world of humanity to some degree.

Funding is the key. The war in the middle east was never about winning hearts and minds and instilling democracy. It was about cutting off funding and cutting off the head of the snake of terror. That is being accomplished.
The exit strategy was instilling democracy. I will agree thats not working.

Because Muslim are killing Muslim it is our fault. If we just leave the killing will stop and all will be well with the world.

MichaelF. I feel your pain because the radicals are marching across the world. They are infilling nations with their radical ranks, slowly, ever so slowly absorbing western cultures and making it their own.

Europe is so blind that they don’t even see what is happening to them because of 2000 years of war they have surrendered to anything that will bring peace. While I feel their pain, I stand aghast at their actions.

Sometimes in history a war has to be fought.

I agree with you MichaelF. Choosing sides is rapidly no longer becoming an option. We know which side the antiwar is on. They hate and despise religion and yet they turn a blind eye to Radical religions who murder and kill in the name of their God. When the Christian West responds…..WE are murdering Religous Fanatics.

There is no sanity left in this world. The trouble is that the insane are calling the insane, Insane.

Because we watched them do it with sattelites in both Lebanon and Iran. The Israelis spent nights and days for years watching and filming Hezzbolah build bunkers near the front line between Lebanon and Israel.

I bet if you and I got together we could talk to Steinway and the pentagon. If we dropped 3 steinways one after the other from b2’s we could penetrate those bunkers and fill the halls with the “Sound of Music”

I know steinways are expensive but they are probably cheaper then 31,000 lbs of explosive.

Well sorry SteveK. I work in the military industrial community. I get the scuttlebutt. I hear what the big boys hear. We talk about it at the water fountains when we are working on (fill in the blank) military system.

I am NOBODY important. There is nothing special about me other then I am a Neocon, warmongering, wealthy Republican who wants the world to end soon because all this prosperity is just getting too much to bare.

We need a Democrat to become in charge so they can take my money away again and make me poor and destitute and force me to use my mental health plan at work again.

…are we just going to take out a huge portion of Iran’s population? That sounds truly insane to me.

Sounds pretty insane to me, too.

That is why most, who are paying attention, can’t understand the ‘insanity‘ of the current administration.

The appeasers continue to give up ground with Muslims across the board. It is the same
foolish thought process that has led the British to stop teaching about the holocaust or the crusades in school. It is the same thought process that has led European countries to ban freedom of speech for fear of angering Muslims (The cartoon fiasco to name an example)

The incident involving the capture of British Soldiers was made possible by the current climate .The reaction here by those who refuse to see this for what it actually is only buttreses my point . The radical Muslims are winning because people don’t have the stomach to fight now.

kritter Says:
April 6th, 2007 at 3:16 pm Michael F- I’m sorry but that is just ridiculous. The NIE that came out last year showed that it is our involvement in Iraq that is emboldening the enemy as more and more youth turn radical and get recruited by al queda

We are discussing the incident between Iran and Great Britain. As Marlowecan points out, this was not the first time Iran had taken British hostages. The problem you fail to understand is that you are considering these events from your perspective. The events play quite differently within Middle Eastern countries. The debate over Iraq is a separate issue. It is inevitable that the conflict will escalate and involve more recruitment. This is the very nature of the enemy we are fighting. Stop projecting your own values onto these people. Have you been paying any attention? They enlist women as suicide bombers. Have you seen the footage of demonstrations in Great Britain and other parts of Europe. When was the last time you saw a cartoon or other character of Christ illicit a similar response? Do you remember Piss Christ? People protested PEACEFULLY AND NON VOLENTLY.You just don’t get it. You are dealing with a different culture with very different values. Look at France .

The bottom line in this debate revolves around which of us better understands what is happening and can correctly predict the future. Remember, we were the same people who were warning that more of the same would occur after the Iranian hostage crisis under Carter. I can honestly say that I was interviewed on live television on a major Boston news station where I correctly predicted the fight would come here. You can take all you want about Iraq but it simply ignores the facts. Prior to Iraq we had an escalation involving attacks against US targets around the globe. DO I REALLY NEED TO LIST YOU THEM IN CHRONOLOGIC ORDER? It was happening long before Iraq and our response was not enough to stop the escalation. We will eventually have to solve the problem. But do to politics, we have to wait until all measures of appeasement fail and thousands more Americans die on our own soil. Unfortunately the fight will be much more difficult and the cost much greater.

the {fill in the blank} situation is widely known in military circles

And your military circle is what? (If you say the 101st Keyboard Battalion I will smile.)

[A] new bunker busting bomb that is frighteningly more powerful. It weights 31,000 lbs. Its the Mother of all Bunker Busters. It is designed to penetrate 70 feet of earth and concrete.

Hell’s Fire man a piano weighing 31,000 lbs. will penetrate 30 feet!

This entire war was a calculated gamble by both sides. Iran sent its forces to kidnap Israelis as soon as their was talk to begin talk of sanctions against Iran. This was on the drawing board for sometime. This is not the first time Hezbollah had captured Israeli soldiers. However the Iranians and Hezzbollah were totally thrown off guard by Israels response to this.

The reason is that the United States and Israel had worked out a scenario in which the next kidnapping would trigger a response that resulted in the 30 day war. The entire scenario was played out because Iran had built Hezzbolahs bunkers and the USA and Israel wanted to know just what would be necessary to bunker bust Irans Nuke Facilities.

Do you remember the world crying out about the USA racing Bunker Busters to Israel on the spur of the moment? That was not a miscalculation either.

The Bomb Damage Assessment was that in fact the bombs the USA shipped frantically to Israel to bunker bust were essentially ineffective and thus have ruled out conventional bunker busting bombs.

However you might be interested in knowing that Boeing just last week tested a new bunker busting bomb that is frighteningly more powerful. It weights 31,000 lbs. Its the Mother of all Bunker Busters. It is designed to penetrate 70 feet of earth and concrete. Interestingly enough the exact estimated depth of Irans Nuke Facilities. They are in production right now.

This is the real tragedy in all this. Iran is — by all accounts — going increasingly downhill economically and domestically. A few years ago there was talk that China and Russia would use Iran to create a new eastern power bloc but since the election of Ahmadinejad, who has had terrible economic policies, this has completely abated.

Iran is not like North Korea or Syria or Iraq where they are content with local meddling. This event was a perfect chance for the EU to completely isolate Iran (and make sure Russia and China did as well) and they should have taken it. The problem is that they seem to think we (UK/US) deserve it.

I’m not saying Iran didn’t do anything wrong, just that the only thing anyone has suggested is military action and that’s a stupid move for lots of reasons. We need to work on redeveloping soft power by taking advantage of clear cut belligerence.

Kritter, you make the key point – Hezbollah learned this tactic from the Iranians. The Iranians have been taking hostages for years as political tools.

This is the second time they have done so with British marines in the northern Gulf/southern Iraq.

This is a deliberate strategy that has reaped benefits for Iran. If you looked at the hundreds of comments on the BBC website during the event, the majority of Brits favoured the Iranians (particuarly over those gun happy macho Yanks!).

How many times can Iran be allowed to do this with impunity? The EU did nothing. The UN did nothing. No sanctions. Not even a strongly worded diplomatic note.

Consider the lesson Iran learned. You can push, and the West will roll.

At what point would action (not even military…but trade sanctions) be entertained by the EU — seizing embassies…randomly abducting people off the streets of Western cities….

Plus its easy to talk about, since they know that we lack the military capability to do it in the first place. So much is just political rhetoric in a game of partisan gotcha.

That’s interesting about Lebanon – where did you hear that?

That is precisely why they used all air power and claimed they were not going to invade then later after the air campaign was over they decided to go in and look at what they had accomplished.

War is always about calculation. A short 30 day war like this one was certainly calculated and not fly off the handle.

Iran is simply trying to test us. They want us to attack them now and turn the world against them. Turn the Shia into legitimate Martyrs of Islam while the USA is not in a position to do so.

There is no intention to attack IRAN. Period. Israel proved it would be futile and sanctions are working so well that Iran will collapse in the next year to eighteen months.

The wierd thing I seem to be feeling from the antiwar though is that IRaq is a waste but lets kill them Iranian scum. Even the democrats are talking about going after Iran if necessary. And that is certainly odd for even the democrats to talk hawkish on Iran.

Israel had almost the same situation, when its soldiers were taken hostage by Lebanon. They responded as you seem to think they should have by bombing the crap out of Lebanon and hurting the moderates there more than the radical Hezbollah. They also hurt themselves in the world of public opinion, for responding out of proportion to the original offense. Nothing of any substance was accomplished for Israel. In this instance , 15 lives were spared, and an international incident was avoided. We are not in a position to start another war, which is probably why we are no longer hearing that big build-up about Iranian involvement in Iraq that we got a few months ago. The military told the administration that it was not an option. So why pretend that it is?

This will continue to a point where the rest of us will have to draw the line with the enemy as well as our faint hearted brethren .