An Internet hub with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, indies, centrists, moderates, and right
Poetic Justice
John Derbyshire on the recently released British sailors:
15 British Agressors [sic] must be EXECUTED.” That was the placard being held up by some beetle-browed Iranian outside the British Embassy in Tehran. Well, I don’t entirely disagree. I certainly think that those British captives who have let themselves be put forward on Iranian TV, that woman wearing a headscarf, and the young man apologizing to the Iranian gangster-rulers, should be court-martialed for dereliction of duty when they get back to Blighty, with shooting definitely an option.
[...]
Where is John Moyse?
[...]
[A] British soldier of the East Kent Regiment,… Moyse was captured by the Chinese during the Second Opium War of the late 1850s. Taken before a Mandarin, he was ordered to kowtow, but refused. He was thereupon clubbed to death and decapitated, and his body thrown on a dung-heap. Sir Francis Doyle wrote a poem to celebrate Moyse’s defiance of the enemy.
Christopher Orr responds: “Yes, it really is a shame that so few people these days are willing to be beaten, killed, and mutilated for the sake of national honor and a good poem.”
opinions powered by SendLove.to
17 Responses to “Poetic Justice”
Time for this weeks episode of “Chickenhawks On Parade”.
“I, FOR ONE, AM HAPPY TO WELCOME OUR NEW INSECT OVERLORDS!”
With apologies to “The Simpsons”, that is the tone with which the left of the blogosphere has responded to this humiliation of Great Britain.
The link to Orr, at TNR, pretty much captured this. For example, this is Orr condemning any criticism of the smiley/happy Brit sailors/marines:
“…to capture some of the faux macho trash talk so common in the conservative blogosphere, in which commentators who generally haven’t donned uniform see fit to hold people who have to the standards of a historic martyr or the hero of the latest Mel Gibson movie.”
Of course, the chickenhawk meme is always good. And if criticism comes from people IN uniform, as the military writer at the WashPost informed us a few weeks back, they can just STFU too. People in uniform are not allowed to speak…unless in support of liberal causes.
This was a radical break in military discipline. Remember the days of “name, rank, and serial number”?
That is all “faux macho talk”.
This was an utter humiliation of Britain and the Royal Navy. My god, even the BBC concedes this. I was watching this story on the news at a friend’s house, with her grandfather there…a pilot in Bomber Command during WWII, and he was appalled.
Yah, lots of “faux macho” types in WWII. He was a Jew who, at 20, flew bombing raid over Germany with a Star of David around his neck next to his dog tags. He knew very well what would happen to him if he was shot down.
Yah, those “faux macho” types of that “so-called Greatest Generation”….
Note: To clarify my comment above… It was NOT meant for the British Soldiers but rather was aimed at all the armechair chickenhawks who know ‘What should have been done’ and ‘How they would have acted‘ had they the time or courage to enlist in the aid of their country.
Yes but the “John Moyse” types would never get another chance to slit the throat of an Iranian. Or, squeeze the trigger on several as the case may be.
When did protecting drug trafficing become patriotic? LOL
For the slow people that was in reference to John Moyse dying to protect his government’s opium trade…..kinda like our present addiction to oil eh? hehe
I went to SERE school for what is called HRC, or high-risk of capture training. A couple of points from my perspective.
Iran and the UK are not at war. The “name rank serial” number, always resist, always try to escape code of conduct that applies to POW’s did not apply to these Brits because they were not POW’s – either legally or in actuality.
It’s come to light that none of the Brits had any sort of resistance training similar to what I had at SERE school. The only thing they were trained in, apparently, was conduct in POW status under the Geneva Convention. Now, if they had ACTED like POW’s that could very well cause problems and certain acts that are perfectly legal as a POW could get you prosecuted if you try them when you’re not a POW.
So there’s definitely ambiguity in the Brit’s minds as to their legal status, and I expect the Iranians exploited that. I know from my training that skilled propagandists/interrogators when combined with the miracle of video editing can make one appear to say or do almost anything. I suspect that once those Brits see the videos of themselves, they’ll be saying, WTF, that’s not how it happened. I can’t go into details because most of SERE school is classified for good reason, but interrogators can manipulate the context of the situation easily for the average person who hasn’t been trained to recognize the techniques for what they are.
I don’t think it’s fair at all to blame these Marines and Sailors individually. Their leadership failed them – they didn’t get the proper training, they didn’t get overwatch for the VBSS boardings and they likely didn’t have the proper ROE.
SteveK said:
I largely agree. I went into SERE school all cocky and even though I had some idea of what I was in for, I came away with a new appreciation for a skilled interrogator’s ability for mental manipulation. Even though I’d had the training, knew what to look for, and had learned the resistance techniques, they were still able to trip me up and get some propaganda out of me.
What many fail to address is the failure of leadership in this incident. Where was the air or naval support when the 15 were kidnapped. Didn’t anyone notice that hostile Iranian ships were in the area. This is like Abu Graib, lets blame the enlisted and low level officers for the negligence of the command officers.
Rudi Says:
April 5th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
What many fail to address is the failure of leadership in this incident. Where was the air or naval support when the 15 were kidnapped
Naval and air support was right there . They could easily have rebuked the Iranian ship . They backed off for some reason . This was a failure across the board for the British Royal Navy .
Rudi said: “What many fail to address is the failure of leadership in this incident. Where was the air or naval support when the 15 were kidnapped. Didn’t anyone notice that hostile Iranian ships were in the area. This is like Abu Graib, lets blame the enlisted and low level officers for the negligence of the command officers. ”
I suspect you may be right, Rudi. There needs to be someone to blame, and the MoD does not want it to be them. There was a trial balloon sent up from MoD pointing the finger at Bush earlier in the week. Hmmm…I wonder if there will be (or are) similarly orchestrated fingers pointing at the marines/sailors in this case.
Make no mistake: I thought their performance very bad. There was no need to be hostile, or aggravate their Iranian captors…but I know of no comparisons with the chumminess they showed. When the US airmen were seized by China, in that air collision incident back in 2001, they did not behave in this way. Then there was no state of war with China…but no need to be best buds with them either.
But I totally agree, Rudi, the majority of the blame in this incident lies much higher up! After all, the Iranians did exactly the same thing in those waters seizing British hostages several years before.
The hostage taking was inexplicable. More than the behaviour of the marines, it was truly humilating as it showed incredible sloppiness and incompetence…and given that the ROE are approved at the MoD level, this is a royal cockup.
I am very afraid that you might be right, Rudi. The Cornwall’s captain will probably take the fall…there will be a diversionary emphasis on the behaviour of the troops in the media…and that will be that. The Admiralty will remain the same…as will the bureaucrats and politicians.
A very English resolution. Class based, of course, with the lower orders taking the fall.
Very interesting Entropy, thanks.
MalowecanMake no mistake: I thought their performance very bad. There was no need to be hostile, or aggravate their Iranian captors…but I know of no comparisons with the chumminess they showed. When the US airmen were seized by China, in that air collision incident back in 2001, they did not behave in this way. Then there was no state of war with China…but no need to be best buds with them either.
I would take Entropy’s words of experience seriously.
I went into SERE school all cocky and even though I had some idea of what I was in for, I came away with a new appreciation for a skilled interrogator’s ability for mental manipulation. Even though I’d had the training, knew what to look for, and had learned the resistance techniques, they were still able to trip me up and get some propaganda out of me.
Criticism of the sailorss behavior in captivity, without any knowledge of the conditions to which they were subject strikes me as a wee bit premature. And chickenhawk Derbyshire’s over the top invective, and the pea-souled knuckle draggers to which such appeals, strikes me as especially repulsive.
Forward, they cried, from the rear, and the front line died.
I, liberal nut-job that I am, am simply glad they are home safe.
Sorry ’bout the, typos. Where’s the damn preview button when I need it?
MichaelF, I would rather a commander let 15 sailors to be captured and hope that they are returned than to start a war. Protecting the nation should take precedence over protecting the troops.
Kevin H, indeed I have the strongest feeling that part of what’s behind Derbyshire’s snit is the failure of the British sailors to die in captivity and provide a gift-wrapped casus belli against Iran.
With respect to China and the EP-3 crew, the principle difference is that China did not parade them on TV like the Iranians did. China didn’t video-tape “confessions” like the Iranians did. And as aircrew with Top Secret security clearances, everyone on the EP-3 had some resistance training – compared to none for the Brits.
The two situations are analogous in some ways, and not so much in others.
I wouldn’t exactly say it was a day at the beach.
To avoid having to take the first aggressive action, the skipper of the Cornwall could have simply ordered his people back aboard the ship (or better yet, not allowed them to leave the ship in the first place), rather than letting them get into their inflatable boats. The Cornwall’s radar was working, so they had to have known several Iranian boats were on their way. The Iranians might have taken the British rubber boats, but anything of value would have been out of their reach unless they stormed the side of the ship. Given Iran’s history of grabbing sailors, this showed an unsettling complacency on the part of the skipper of the Cornwall and the Admiralty.