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Monty Python Should Stay Out of Politics
Monty Python’s Terry Jones should consider keeping his mouth shut.
As Bryan points out, “Jones is both tactically stupid and willfully obtuse. Anything short of military force in Afghanistan would have been cut to shreds, and a piece of garbage like Jones would then have argued that Bush obviously didn’t take the enemy seriously enough. Conspiracy theories would have arisen from that just as surely as they have arisen from the present circumstances.
I don’t know what’s more depressing: That a Python alum is so far gone into moral relativism as to smear his nation’s troops as they’re held hostage by a rogue regime, or that so many of his countrymen (if the comments on his article are any guide) have joined him there.”
Despicable.
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41 Responses to “Monty Python Should Stay Out of Politics”
Call that humiliation?
MIchael,
I read the Terry Jones Op-Ed from start to finish and didn’t see a single “smear [of] his nation’s troops.
It seems (IMO) that he is merely pointing out the ‘outrage’ of “THEM capturing US” and the lack of outrage when “WE capture “THEM”.
Then he continued by citing the difference in “THEIR treatment of OUR personnel” as opposed to “OUR treatment of THEIRS”.
I don’t like listening to what Terry Jones has to say but it’s because of the shameful truth of his words not his lack of moral relativism.
As a cause for outrage, this is small potatoes, on a par with inapropriate statements uttered daily by partisan talking heads.
In the meantime, it gives us a glimpse into how this will be protrayed by foreign news outlets. Some of Jones’s points should give us pause, as well. US treatment of detainees has tied our hands in international debates.
If these troops are killed, it will just be more blood on the hands of George W. Bush and his ignoramous conduct of this supposed “war on terror”. Its time to bring the troops home.
Wow, suffice it to say it’s a slow outrage day for MVG and his buddies at Hot Air.
Seriously, get back to me when the Iranians hold them for 6 years, then charge and sentence them to 9 months.
I suppose MVG believes this drivel as well. Everyone at Gitmo captured fighting our troops on the battlefield.
Oh well, I suppose if it helps you sleep at night kiddo.
And of course, you have the advantage of being able to cheer on this travesty while not having to take a drop of responsibility for it.
Care to fast track US citizenship?
Michael: “keep his mouth shut” is almost ALWAYS a mind-bogglingly stupid political criticism. Just something to keep in mind. Why not show people how he’s wrong and maybe change his mind? Why revert to ham-handed authoritarianism? Just because you get a story from the jackboots doesn’t mean you have to act like them.
Does Mr. Jones know how these British sailors are being treated when the video cameras are off? He might want to read up on the treatment that American embassy personnel endured in their 444 days of captivity.
carpeicthus – every now and then I believe I can keep it short like that. I feel very strongly about this and, as you all know, I’m not in the habit of name calling, telling people to shut up, etc. In this particular case, however, I believe it to be warranted.
G. Weightman: he probably believes that they are treated very well, taken out every day for dinner in a restaurant (no pork meat of course, but still), etc. once the cameras are off.
My pet peeve: casual misuse of “moral relativism” (in annoyingly ironic fashion, “moral relativism” has become a cipher whose content is determined ex post facto by the speaker).
That said, please explain how the post evinces moral relativism.
OK, read the article. Yes, you’re being moronic. Smearing the troops? Jesus. YOU’RE smearing the troops by placing the blame for torture policy on them. One of the many, many problems with what we’ve been doing to our prisoners is that it puts us in a moral equivalency with people we really shouldn’t have to be lumped with. That’s what the article is about. God, I hate contrarians sometimes. They’re smart a lot of the time, but it’s like they have a quota of idiocy to lash out with, and you don’t expect it. John Cole when through that phase in his transition. Best of luck to McDG to become a beautiful, straw-man-free butterfly.
Briefly on moral relativism: the necessary condition of Jones’s argument is the proposition that all prisoners, regardless of circumstance, should be afforded some minimum of decent treatment.
Whatever else that may be, it’s the exact flipping opposite of moral relativism.
As should be obvious, misuse of the concept is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.
The camaras off, eh? Kinda like the Abu Ghraib camaras?
IMO there is little we can do for the British troops. We will have to decide whether to go to full scale war against Iran or pull out….or….simply turn our backs on the captured. Since George W. Bush arrogantly thumbed his nose at out allies opinion and thus lost their committed support at the beginning of all this, there will be no massive multi-national invasion of Iran like we saw in Kosovo. If we did go to war with Iran,. we would instantly find ourselves at war with the Shia in Iraq. So in a time when we desperately need a competent leader, we have a bumbling idiot in the white house and all the committed support in the world for George W Bush from the Democrats, won’t matter a hill of beans. We simply do not have enough military with our reduced size, “volunteerâ€?, forces.
Yeah, but those are Americans doing the stripping, waterboarding, etc. While not moral relativism per se, the whatever-America-does-is-OK certainly comes closer than Jones’s universalist ethics.
The American MPs responsible for the photo above are in prison. The Iranian students responsible for the US Embassy takeover are in power (or at least one of them is).
The Monty Python troupe took their comedy to the bizarre and absurd. They attacked every convention with abandon. Why would MvdG expect something from Jones that Margret Thatcher would accept. The editorial ring with a little satire and the absurd.When comedians like Dennis Miller, Bill Maher or George Carlin address politics they don’t ignore their day job while making observations. Lighten up MvdG.
Just noticed that Hotair has locked its comment section. Does a Loyalty Oath to Bush,torture and PNAC merit membership at HotAur and allow the outsiders entry into a discussion with the Wingnuttery?
Once again, comedians got it right… serious commentators got it wrong.
After reading the editorial it becomes clearer why the left wants to apply the Geneva Convention to everyone fighting against the United States but expects no one in the Middle East to be capable of honoring it themselves.
The British Marines were in Iraqi waters and in Uniform. When was the last time someone shooting at U.S. Marines in Fallugah was caught wearing a uniform?
Why should Mr. Jones “keep his mouth shut” again? Smearing his nation’s troops? Mike, are you really as poor a reader as that comment would suggest. Why don’t you “keep your mouth shut”? Why do you have any more right and authority to spew your opinions than Mr. Jones does his.
Despicable mike…. just despicable.
Superdestroyer…it does not matter that the British marines were seized by the Iranians in Iraqi waters.
This was a brilliant stroke by the Iranian government, which recognizes a “slow horse” (to reference Osama’s famous analogy) when it sees one.
The UK has the world’s fifth largest economy, but the world’s 28th most powerful armed forces. Blair has no option but to wait for the daily humiliations from Tehran.
Plus, Tehran recognizes the self-loathing of the Western “chattering classes” of which Jones is a classic example.
If anyone here has been following the comments in the “Guardian” or the BBC about this story in the past days, it is remarkable how most posters defend the right of the Iranians to take British hostages.
There are numerous reasons for this right. One of my favorite was the poster at the Guardian’s blog who declared that since children are being executed in the United States as she types, Blair has no right to demand the return of the hostages. Another nice one invokes the thousands being held in secret CIA prisons. Lots reference Israel, and declare that as long as the Israeli’s oppress the Palestineans, the UK has no right to demand the return of the hostages.
In the 1940s Orwell wrote a great essay about the “self-loathing of the intellectual class” regarding how the British intelligentsia of the time universally despised British democratic values – most favouring communism, and a minority, facism…as the vital systems of the future.
Jones has to be situated in this context. Consider, for example, Terry Jones’ views on history in his various comic treatments of it in recent years such as “Terry Jones Medieval Lives” etc (medieval barbarians, good…Roman empire, bad).
Am I the only one that sees the irony in Marlowecan’s comment? It is not Terry Jones that despises “democratic values” he is trying to stand up for “democratic values”. He despises, as do I, the fact that our respective nations have decided to violate international law and conventions and have systematically engaged in secret prisons, rendition and torture. The “chattering classes” that despise democratic values are the Michael van der Galien’s of the world that try to shout down those of us that exercise our (still) free speech to stand up for those very values Marlowecan talks about and what our nations once stood for.
Proud Liberal said: “The “chattering classesâ€? that despise democratic values are the Michael van der Galien’s of the world that try to shout down those of us that exercise our (still) free speech…”
You have not been following the end of British free speech under Blair, with the new laws against slandering religion. This is a variant of the PC idea of “appropriate speech”…and was instituted by the liberal elite to appease Islamists in the UK.
If any of you know UK comedy, you know British comics have been mocking Christianity and Judaism happily for decades. One does not mock Islam however…and liberals have been falling over themselves to suppress freedom of expression that may offend Islamists.
To reference Orwell again: when Britain faced its darkest hours, he began a period of deep reflection. Orwell was an anarchist, and despised the British empire…unlike many “parlour room Bolshies” putting his ass where his mouth was and going off and fighting in Spain. But he came to the view that while Britain was far from perfect, it was better than what Hitler or Stalin (the leading alternatives of the time) had to offer. “My country right or left” Orwell said.
Yes, there have been a great many appalling things occuring. However, while moral relativists like Jones may see no difference between people being held in Gitmo and the howls of the Islamists’ “Allahu Akbar” as they behead screaming innocents on video…there is a difference.
Today the mobs are at the British embassy in Tehran. If they storm the embassy and lynch the Ambassador, one can expect the usual suspects posting at the “Guardian”:
“Of course, we don’t condone the lynching of British diplomats, but we must understand…. look at Guantanamo Bay, and the West Bank, and Allende, and the Bay of Pigs….”
Self-loathing is not in any sense whatsoever the same as self-criticism.
In fact, iwe would like the Muslim world to emulate us and do a little self-criticism, as well.
In general, we criticize more that which we care about most, because we want it to be perfect. Self-criticism could be better described as self-love, although, as with all love, this also can go overboard.
The freedom of speech issue is another matter.
Equal rights and special rights should be mutually exclusive.
I think it is incorrect to lump all issues between Muslims and the West into one basket. Sometimes, we can be wrong, and at those times, self-criticism is in order.
What Jones illustrates, I think, is that when we are wrong, we might well end up paying for the mistake. We were wrong in how we treated detainees, and now we may end up paying for that error.
It would be so much easier to present the case against Iran, if the US had a clean slate.
Comparing atrocities is kind of sick. Is one water boarding worth 10 beatings? There should be no rate of exchange. Wrong is wrong.
All the British gov. really has to do is the charming Brit thing and say…”Sorry about that old chap, didn’t mean to troll into your waters”. It would come off as that usual Brit way of saying things that makes people forget what ticked them off, and the Iranian’s would release the Brit’s all would be well, and no war for the frothing cowboy. Iran and England might have some tea, chat a bit, and become better off for doing so, but Blair is trying to look tough which Brit’s do very badly. Americans naturally have a giant chip on our shoulders about any tiny infraction, and this is a case of us acting like this should as well. This is all remarkably stupid bluster for nothing at all, while placing the world in danger to see who thinks they have bigger balls.
I nominate Michael for a one man rescue mission, he’ll show us how John Wayne he is, go get em Michael!
MvdG,
I’m confused about your outrage over Terry Jones’ recent article. You didn’t include any quotes from him, so when I first read your post, I thought to myself, “Of great! What stupid mean-spirited remark did some celebrity say now?” Then I read the article written by Terry Jones. In fact, fearing that I had missed something, went back and read it again.
There’s no question that Terry Jones was being condescending in his article. The problem is–he wasn’t mocking the British soldiers. He was mocking the British and American governments–pointing out their hypocrisy. That’s why he referenced Abu Graib and Guantanamo Bay. Some might argue that it was inappropriate for him to inject humor into such a serious situation, but then, that’s satire. I’m sure John Swift offended plenty of people when he wrote A Modest Proposal.
I don’t understand what about the article angered you so much that you would advise Terry Jones to “keep his mouth shut.” If Terry Jones’ article sounded stupid or offensive, it didn’t sound half as stupid as comes out of the mouths of politicians and pundits on a daily basis.
Frankly, I found the comments at HotAir far more offensive than what Terry Jones wrote–which is hardly suprising. HotAir is a rabidly partisan blog that is bent upon attacking anyone who attacks the Bush Administration, his policies, the War in Iraq, or the War on Terrorism. Malkin pretty much lost any credibility she ever had when she attempted to justify the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII in her book “Defense of Internment.”
99% of the time, you’re such a reasonable guy, Michael. You seem more knowledgeable regarding American history and politics than most Americans that I know. But do you really want to include yourself in the company of the likes of Malkin and HotAir? These are not people who believe in civility. Theses are not people who believe in civil liberties. These are not people who believe in holding government accountable for its mistakes.
There are so many things that government (both Democrats and Republicans) are doing wrong. But for Malkin and her fellow warbloggers, attacking celebrities who speak out against their government’s policies is a bigger priority, I suppose.
British comedian’s have, for decades, been Christians and Jews, ergo… Christian and Jewish jokes.
Someday Muslim jokes (of the Monty Python variety) will herald the arrival of Muslim acceptance into western culture.
Is it just me, or is everyone’s comment being blockquoted?
Better? No?
Marlowecan,
Actually it is important that the British Marines were siezed in Iraqi waters because it shows that the Iranians are criminals. I wonder if those judicial activist in Germany who want to put Rumsfeld on trials will not go after the Iranians for piracy? Somehow I doubt it.
I also suspect the British Intelligencia of backhanded racism. They do not expect the Iranians of being able to act civilize but then demand perfections of anything that the U.S. or Great Britian does.
after all we have gone through these last years how you can say with such assuredness that the marines were in Iraqi waters? Don’t you have a tiny bit of skepticism when it comes to what our governments tell us? Just a very very brief reminder:
tons and tons of WMD
Nuclear programs reconstituted
yellow cake
Private Jessica’s heroism
Pat Tilmans death
remarkable progress in Iraq
last throes of insurgency
“fixing the intelligence”
didn’t leak Wilson’s name
Scooter Libby’s felony convictions for perjury
didn’t talk to White house on US Attorney purge
surge is working
yada yada yada….. if you want to believe what your government tells you without question at this point there is nothing more I can say other than authoritarian governments around the world love citizens like you.
hmmmm…. moral relativism
Global Positioning System (GPS) coordinates of two British boats seized with 15 sailors were changed by Iran to make it appear they were in Iranian waters, Britain’s UN envoy said Thursday.
“It was only when we point out that the detention (of the 15 British sailors and marines) was inappropriate and in our view unlawful that the coordinates were then changed by the Iranian government to be coordinates within Iranian waters,” British Ambassador Emyr Jones Parry said.
You seem to have a predisposition to believe other Emirs. Why not this Emyr?
Michael van der Galien, Bryan, and the marjority of the people commenting on the Hot Air blog are morons, and that’s being generous.
First of all, you’ve fallen for the trap that the people captured by American and British troops were terrorists. In five years there’s been 1 conviction, and his was given just nine months in exchange for saying he wasn’t tortured. Hundred were releases without a single charge being brought against them. These people were innocent, and had been the entire five years they were stuck in there.
I do agree that Iran is not good nation and the captive are likely being mistreated, but the US and its allies have no moral highground to stand on.
To repeat, in bold, the US has lost the moral highground to nations like Iran.
The only way to regain it now, it for people to go to jail. But that’s never going to happen as long as people like Michael van der Galien, Bryan, et al, continue to attack those who point out how far we’ve degraded over the past 6 years.
No, I have a predisposition to disbelieve anything any government says in a case like this.
America has ceded its moral authority to a terrorist-enabling Iran, and American officials need to go to jail (sentence first; trial later).
Who appointed these unnamed moral arbiters? Oh, they’re self-appointed. Now I understand.
“America has ceded its moral authority to a terrorist-enabling Iran, ”
Yes. Scary as that may sound, the U.S. has less moral authority than Iran. Everything they are accusing Iran of doing, the U.S. has also done, and much worse.
It is possible for both sides to be wrong, but in this case one is more wrong that the other.
“and American officials need to go to jail (sentence first; trial later).”
Jesus christ, are you trying to look stupid? Of course their needs to be a trial first, but there’s no way Abu Ghraib could happen without someone, somewhere breaking the law. Someone needs to go to jail, we just don’t know who and for how long.
The most important idea posited in these comments concerns the price of losing the moral highground. If these were US soldiers, we could not condemn Iran for a failure to adhere to the Geneva Convention rules, for example.
There was an article in
The Guardian claiming that some Bristish officials see US official statements as a deterrence to achieving
a resolution with Iran.
The US has brought itself down very low.
Apparently, the incarceration of the rogue MPs doesn’t satisfy you. But you just can’t back up the tumbrels to the White House gates and start loading in the suspects. The United States vs. Someone, Somewhere is not a case that will go very far in the courts. You need to bring sufficient evidence against a specific legal entity. When you find one, please write about your discovery.