Of Muslim ‘Madarsas’ & Christianity Classes
Mar 15th, 2007 | 20 responses
The very mention of the word “madarsa” or Islamic religious school almost creates a hysteria. It was interesting to see this video on “Christian classes” in the US schools.
Vittal in his blog writes: “It really scares me to see how people base their moral judgments strictly on their religious beliefs and teachings. Let me make it very clear – I am not against any religion or god. I have drawn tremendous amount of hope and energy from spiritual readings.
“But I clearly oppose ‘blindly’ following your faith which will lead to lack of independent thinking, more intolerance and eventually a theocratic society.
“Here is a sample – ‘Intolerance’ and ‘closed mindset’ are the two words to best describe what you are going to see now.”
Just check out…
20 Responses to “Of Muslim ‘Madarsas’ & Christianity Classes”
Translation: I like religion except when it interfers with everything that is more important than religion.
Maybe the guy does not relize that some people put religion first in their lives.
The question becomes for both sides of the political spectrumc is when their religion begins to adversely affect others.
What these people are teaching is ignorant IMO but I don’t see how it compares to what we get concerned about in Madrassas, which is the teaching of hate for those who don’t share one’s beliefs. I didn’t hear anyone in this video telling kids that God commands them to kill those who believe in evolution.
There’s a big difference between ignorance and true intolerance. People choosing to teach their kids things that are in contradiction to science is a bit disturbing, but not to the degree of people teaching their kids to hate others or to believe that killing of those with other beliefs is justified or sanctioned by God.
So relgious people are “attacked” because their explanation of the origin of the species is asked to submit to the same standards of science as any OTHER explanation of the workings of things. Of course advocates for creation feel that way, since even the most cursory scientific inquiry into creationism shows that creationism fails miserably under any scientific standard. Quite simply, there is no proof of it, so it is scientifically bankrupt.
I feel a mixture of frustration and pity for the people interviewed saying that “creation makes more sense” or that believers in evolution “don’t have all the facts”. Quite simply, the only way to believe in creation is to not ask ANY questions or for ANY proof. Especially pathetic is when the speakers try to take scientific fact and squeeze it into their religious worldview. Science said there were Dinosaurs, but the Bible talks about dinosaurs, or at least something really really big! Yes, science also says that those dinos lived long before the Bible says the universe existed, but that little piece of science doesn’t count does it? The minute evolutionary theory shows the most minimal mystery they instantly denounce it as false, but they do not hold themselves to the same standard by any means.
This is bad, but it’s the worst for those who believe it. My heart goes out to that kid saying he’d be a biochemist for the creationist institute. I’m a biochemist, and he will never, ever, become a biochemist of any worth without first learning the ways of evolution. I can only hope that he goes to a serious university, outside the sectarian bubble, and his training teaches him to appreciate fact vs. faith, proof vs. affirmation. If it does he can become a serious scientist, but he will never again be a creationist.
C. Stanley says: “People choosing to teach their kids things that are in contradiction to science is a bit disturbing, but not to the degree of people teaching their kids to hate others or to believe that killing of those with other beliefs is justified or sanctioned by God.”
This needs some clarification. I am a Hindu not a Muslim. But I have been always fascinated by the Muslim madarsas. As I routinely visit Jewish and Christian and other places of worship/seminaries, I also visit the madarsas. You may say that I am an informal student of comparative religions.
In the last 40 years that I have been visiting madarsas, I have never heard the students being taught to kill others. If this has begun to happen now (whether under duress from extremists or not) during the past few years, it can be to a great extent attributed to the West’s (and the US administration’s) aggressive response post 9/11.
Madarsas are poor people’s schools where Islamic teachings are also propagated. Among a large number of poor and illiterate families, this is a great blessing as they have no resources to educate their children. Maybe the world should ensure major reforms in the madarsa education.
For more on madarsas from Yale Global Forums please visit
https://forums.yaleglobal.yale.edu/thread.jsp?forum=18&thread=502
swaraaj,
If your experience is indicative of the norm, than that is obviously a relief. I certainly have never doubted that some of these religious schools are doing well to educate the kids and that some bias toward religious beliefs is not a concern of mine. I have no way of knowing the percentage that fall into that category or how many might be the extremist schools that teach kids to hate, and I have no desire to pretend that I know this is happening on any large scale at all. Obviously though if it is happening at all, then there is some room for concern because when intolerance reaches that degree of hatred and kids are indoctrinated that way, it’s unacceptable.
I agree with you C. Stanley that there is reason for alarm when indoctrination takes place in any religion.
There is another article on the subject worth a read http://indianmuslims.in/worldly-education/
And this too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
But Barrack Osama education started in a madrasas, Fox News tells us so.
What about the Jesus camps? Haven’t you seen the videos?
*puts Ken Ham in a pit w/ a T-Rex on some Jurassic Park type of scenario*
The You-Tube video typically presents an either/or scenario. You either believe in evolution, or you believe in creation. It conveniently overlooks the third alternative, i.e. creation by evolution. This position, theistic evolution, has been taught for years in reputable Christian colleges and universities that see no conflict between science and Christian faith. Thankfully, I had a biology teacher at the private Christian college where I attended who believed this and set it up as a way to avoid a train wreck for those (like myself) who value what science and faith have to offer. They are each authoritative in their own arena, but shouldn’t be dogmatic outside of it. Unfortunately, when Carl Sagan, the late celebrated astonomer, said that “The cosmos is all that ever was, is, or ever will be,” he has stepped outside of the scientific realm and entered the religious one. So creationist Ken Ham and his ilk aren’t the only ones who are pontificating in areas where their training gives them no right to speak, much less make sweeping claims.
Livie, I think the real proof is in the exploding pudding. Frankly put, there aren’t a whole hell of a lot of Christians killing non-Christians in Gods name, much less blowing themselves up in the process. I saw the Jesus Camp videos, and while highly disturbing I haven’t really seen that this sort of thing has translated into violence against non-believers. True, we must be vigilant against such things, and I do think that fringe extremist Christians put in the right atmosphere would be willing to take up arms, but that simply is not the situation today. Muslim extremists who are willing to kill, and have proven it by killing, are rather numerous, though I don’t doubt that they are a minority of the worlds billion Muslims, there are about as many Christians but not as many Christian extremists, there must be something to that.
This video is sad, and pathetic considering it comes from an industrialized nation, not some third world backwater, but it can’t be compared to the advocating of killing by Muslim extremists.
Folks – does anyone understand that Christians have killed many, many, many, many times as many muslims as they have killed of Christians. The difference is we call our killing War. We rationalize our killing by calling it defensive. We use 2000 lb bombs – they use suicide vests. Please don’t think we are without sin.
jdledell and don’t you confuse a war that happens between nations of different religions on a war BASED on religion. We didn’t go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan because they are Muslim and we are (mostly) Christian. I’m not saying the reasons were good (at least not for Iraq) but they were NOT based on religion, nor was Christianity used as the driving force to motivate fighters, nor have priests been telling soldiers that God wants them to kill as many Muslims as they can, that God will reward them for it.
There is a discussion to be had about war, and the widespread destruction it wreaks, but that isn’t the discussion here today. This discussion is about religious extremism and how it can lead to violence. Christianity HAS been used, in the past, to cause much harm, but it isn’t the driving force today. It ain’t PC, but the fact is that Islam is the religion in the world most closely associated to violence in this time of history.
What this post shows is how similar the applications of religion can be. Everything in the Muslim world is mirrored to some degree in the worlds of other religions.
To be sure, at this point in history, there are considerable differences.
But the mind set is the same. What is different is the technology. Before the invention of bombs, suicide bombers were not possible.
The passions in previous ‘holy wars’ ran as high, but the execution of them was bound by the technology and military planning of the times.
It’s anger, the lust for revenge and the lust for power that fuels violence. The rest is just technology.
One of the technologies enabling hatred is the Internet, where propoganda can zoom around the world in seconds, as opposed to the hand written bulletins of the past. That may be the most dangerous weapon of all.
Articles like this are the best counter terrorism weapon we have. When we start seeing a version of ‘us’ in the picture of ‘them’, weapons drop to the ground.
The really bad part of this is that so many communities are closed to this kind of exchange.
Swaraaj,
“there is reason for alarm when indoctrination takes place in any religion.”
I take a slightly different interpretations from CS’s remarks.
Indoctrination is inevitable, it goes hand in hand with belief. One would be perfectly right in thinking that I have been “indoctrinated” with a scientific world view. All schools, be them Muslim, Christain, Hindi, or secular, will present a particular world view to their students, and it is not surprising that children learn and believe what they are told.
When this indoctrination becomes unacceptable however, is when it steps into the realm of intolerance. If a secular school claimed that the only way to make the world a better place was to kill or forcibly convert religious people, that would clearly be intolerant and wrong.
The worry here in the US is that madrassas are teaching an intolerant version of Islam. I would say (and hope) that most reasonable people don’t think all madrassas are of this dangerous breed.
The exact date of when such teachings began is of secondary issue (although I would argue there is evidence to suggest such trends predate 9-11 by at least a decade or two).
If you wish to make your point comparing Islamic radicalization vs Christian radicalization, I would look to anti-abortion advocates rather than creationists. There is certainly a domestic US history there to somewhat support the idea of violent forms of Christian indoctrination, but you are going to have to make a pretty convincing argument to surpass pictures of children being taught to fire guns.
Lynx – Most of the killing is NOT about religion – it’s about power – who has it and who wants it. Religion is the excuse and the justifying cloak it’s wrapped in. Do you really think the insurgents in Iraq are killing Christian soldiers because of religion? No, it’s about the power they lost or want to gain. Do you really think Palestinians kill Israelis because their Jews? No, they lost the land and want it back.
Religion is mainly what is used to rationalize behavior. To most Americans, muslims are the new blacks. Instinctively we don’t like them because they are different.
jdledell, I think your partially right, but I think that religion can also exaggerate existing tensions. Would as many Palestinians be willing to become suicide bombers if they didn’t believe strongly that they would be rewarded in an afterlife? I don’t think so.
It also provides a tangible label to the feeling of difference you mention in your 2nd paragraph, and can help separate things into ‘us vs them’.
Kevin H-
I think religion can be used for good or ill. It’s a very powerful tool, because those who teach it claim instructions from god(s).
Equally, it can be a powerful tool for good.
There have been powerful leaders mesmerizing the masses into obedience without religious symbolism. They subtiture ideas like ‘ntionalism’ or the ‘power of the proletarist’. The reward of paradise is replaced by eternal status as hero.
There are manipulators and manipulatees, and they use whatever tools of persuasion they have. Religion is one such tool.
Can you say biased? it’s obvious that *THIS* blog is anti-Christian. I am quit shocked.
-TP
Kevin H-
The American, British, French and German troops went ‘over the top’ of the trenches in the First World War. They ran into a deadly hail of machinegun bullets for ‘God and Country’ but usually only in name. It was suicide with little chance of gain and the soldiers knew it.
In reality they did it for the same reason American soldiers fight. Because they know, trust and respect the man or woman standing at their side and they refuse to let them go alone.
The Palestinians willing to martyr themselves to make a point do so because they think it will make a difference. Because it will ‘help the cause.’ At least it is the only way they see and have been taught. It only deals with religion on a tangental basis. The misuse of religion to justify killing.
Can religion be used to create suicide bombers? Yes. But patriotism in it’s extremes is just as deadly.