Obama: “Nobody is suffering more than the Palestinians”
He’s right (at least in the context of the I/P conflict). And it’s not anti-Israel to say so.
We can blame some of their suffering on Israel. We can blame some of it on Palestinians. We can blame a large portion of it, I’d argue, on armed Palestinian terror groups who have taken over the social and political establishment and cannot be controlled or influenced by the average man or women. It doesn’t matter. Anything that prolongs this conflict hurts Palestinians more than anyone else. That’s why I don’t think my line-in-the-sand opposition to Palestinian terrorism and the concurrent belief that the Palestinian leadership must agree to live side-by-side with an Israeli state (and my belief that these issues constitute the primary obstacles to resolving this conflict) is “anti-Palestinian.” It’s pro-peace. And therefore, ipso facto, it’s pro-Palestinian.
25 Responses to “Obama: “Nobody is suffering more than the Palestinians””
The people in Darfur aren’t suffering more? The Iraqis aren’t suffering more? The people in Zimbabwe aren’t suffering more? The people of New Orleans aren’t suffering more?
Snark aside, I don’t care if the Palestinians are suffering. To adapt the definition of chutzpah, the Palestinians created their problems… and now they demand that we make their problems go away. They hold the key to relieving their suffering and they refuse to use it… and until they do, I won’t lose any sleep over their suffering.
There are many more people across the world who merit our sympathy and support.
This is a rare, and welcome, fair-minded assessment
of the situation.
Your position is anti-terrorism (anti-crime, anti-hate) and pro-rationality. 98%+ of cause of problems is Israel’s scummy enemies. So many of them never will accept Israel and want Israel destroyed. Of course, a favorite straw man for their own many failures would cease to exist and then they’d need a new primary substitute, like the USA (especially under devil Boosh — it’s especially hip to criticize and hate a conservative or a GOP US President). It’s amusing when even non-friends of the West such as Mathahir Mohammad in Malaysia x
Obama is just appealing to the f e e l i n g s of his child-like and oft-childish fan club. Perhaps he ought to be more candid and fully honest and say that their suffering is almost exclusively by their own hands, while too many of them raise children to be hate-filled criminals who commit ghastly crimes against decent, completely innocent people, who arguably could be considered suffering more greatly since the harm was so much worse and wrongful.
[It’s amusing when even non-friends of the West
such as Mathahir Mohammad in Malaysia] …
… have told Muslim nations in the Middle East
to quit making excuses for themselves.
(That never stopped him from his own kinds
of misconduct and outrageous statements,
I realize.)
I concur with stevesturm’s and DLS’s sentiments exactly.
Steve – You’re being silly. Israel was created by the U.N without any consideration of the majority of people living there – the Palestinians. I’m not arguing that the Jews didn’t need a homeland (I’m Jewish) but put yourself in the place of the Palestinians in 1948. Would you be happy? All of a sudden europeans were moving in, in droves (kind of like America when we pushed the Indians off the land). Many of the Palestinians were driven from their land (some left volunterily). The wars of 1948, 67 and 73 were started by the rulers of Syria, Jordan and Egypt – not the Palestinians. They have just been pawns in the great geo-political wars. Pawns of other arabs and pawns of Israel.
I Jewish and I think Barak’s Camp David proposal was very unfair. It was not even close to 90% of the West Bank after considering Israeli roads and military zones (ie the Jordan Valley). It was nothing more than a giant open air prison with no borders except those controlled by Israel. In effect they would have been nothing more than cheap labor for Israel. Taba was far, far better but unfortunately time ran out.
Last year I spent 6 months in Israel, mostly in the West Bank, where my relatives live. I’ve seen first hand the terrible treatment of Palestinians by the IDF at checkpoints. I’ve seen the settlements expanding like crazy with the most problematic building occuring in the Jordan Valley. I’ve seen the maps circulating by the settlers of the proposed Jordan Valley fence and the extentions the the Ariel and Ma’ale Adumim fences which effectively creates 3 west bank Bantustans for the Palestinians. I’ve heard the Knesset members tell the settlers – don’t worry – we’re winning. Convergence was a campaign slogan, “formaldehyde” is our solution. The settlers speak of holding off peace for 5 years by which time the settlements will be impossible to dislodge.
Do you have ANY sympathy for Palestinians now? This is a hugely complex problem and it doesn’t lend itself to black and white (good guy, bad guy) analysis. Both sides have to negotiate a settlement for two states. If it isn’t done soon, the possiblities for peace will continue to dwindle to the detriment of both sides. Abbas is ready to negotiate a final settlement tomorrow – it’s Olmert who is stalling and Kadima has told the settlers why – he needs time to solidify the settler enterprise.
jdledell why do the settlers have any clout in Israel anymore? Nearly all the Israelis I’ve read (and all the ones I’ve talked to personally, although admittedly that’s only a handful) have been solidly “pro” Palestinian inasmuch as they empathize with the average Palestinian. They disagree on how to tackle it (the hawks think peace can be established with more directed force and the doves disagree) but they both agree that in general the current policies are unfortunately necessary to protect Israeli lives. These people are interested in peace rather than some concept of “Greater Israel” and I don’t understand how settlers are listened to at all anymore. I mean when Sharon changed his opinion I thought that was going to be the end of it.
Anyway I think the settler mentality is responsible for most of Israel’s faults but even if Israel was perfect the situation wouldn’t change much. The Arab psychoses about this are way too ingrained.
Lastly, if anyone wants to see what Obama actually was talking about, I followed the cascade of links:
So uh, basically what Bush has said. And this is anti-Israel how?
Mikkel – The settlers have clout because they have passion. Some of the settlers are very religious and firmly believe in Greater Israel. Some of the semi-religious while not ready to die for greater Israel do believe that G-d intended them to live in Judea and Samaria, biblical homelands. The secular Jews like the lifestyle and cost of living in the settlements. They continue to be powerful because they have friends and supporters in the government who bend the laws and regulations to benefit them.
The secular Jews who live in Tel Aviv think the West Bank might as well be Mars, they really don’t care what goes on there as long as it doesn’t interfere with their lifestyle. (a bit of a snark here, but only a bit). The settlers have the religious parties, Likud and probably half of Kadima on their side. No one really wants to fight them, so by default they get their way. If suicide bombs are not going off, most Israelis are going to be more afraid of the settlers than they are of the Palestinians.
If you are interested, here are links to two essays on TPM which expains where I’m coming from.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/discussiontables/foreign_affairs_table/2006/oct/21/israel_a_personal_journey
http://www.tpmcafe.com/discussiontables/foreign_affairs_table/2007/jan/31/israel_a_postscript
This is indeed a burden for the whole world. Choosing sides would be fruitless. Does it matter anymore who did what? It is hard not to be prejudiced against Israel. They are indeed acting like nazis and South Africans. The palistineans seem to know only violence. I’m afraid for Israel. How can such intelligent people act against their best interest?
jdledell: the Palestinians threw in with the Arabs in my ancestors were forced 48. They picked the wrong side and they get to deal with the consequences. And it’s how they’ve dealt with the consequences that has cost them whatever support and sympathy I might have had for them. They haven’t made peace with their neighbors. They haven’t tried (like the American Indians) building casinos so they can take the money from those who took their homes.
My ancestors got forced out of Russia and Europe, yet I’m (great guy that I am) not b****ing about it and encouraging my relatives to go blow up the descendants of those I hold responsible.
And just who am I supposed to have sympathy for? Those who blow up children on buses? Or those who cheer on those who blow up children on buses? Or those who are too cowardly to speak up against those who blow up children on buses?
cat travis.
i take great umbrage in the comparisons made from israel to nazis and what occured in south africa
wanna show me where the nazis were ever threatened by the 11 million they slaughtered?
wanna show me where white south africans were threatened with genocide by the black majority they ruled over?
an intelligent person doesnt give up land for peace without assurances that their security will be guaranteed
why is it that israel and egypt have existed peacefully since the camp david accords….what about israel and jordan
Anyone here who criticizes the Palestinians as the sole creators of their current situation are unaware of what their lives are like. They don’t just come up with the belief that it is right to attack Israel. They are living in abject poverty, and Israel is part of the cause. And what they have is often destroyed by Israel. How often, in our country, does the government bulldoze entire neighborhoods because there was a shooting that originated from that neighborhood? They punish the Palestinians collectively for the actions of a few, and thus create more animosity among the Palestinians towards them.
Also, there is the issue of freezing funds towards healthcare and food for the Palestinians due to the fact that they elected Hamas to the government. This is only going to aggravate the situation and further legitimize Hamas in the eyes of the Palestinian people.
Don’t give me the excuse they have to go into Palestinian land because they need to protect their people. Going in and bulldozing a neighborhood in retaliation for a suicide bombing is just as immoral, criminal, and terroristic as that suicide bombing. Both people have a right to exist, peacefully, but Israel should not get a pass to commit atrocities in the name of security.
And the Israeli’s are not threatened by all the Palestinians, but they feel threatened by all of them. Similarly, the Nazis were not actually threatened by the Jews, but they rationalized that all of them were part of an international secular Jewish communist movement to take over the world and subvert the ‘German’ race. Both groups show a similar paranoia about the ‘other’ and thus they are comparable.
I feel like the paranoia is slightly different in that one has actually been verified through violence supported by genocidal rhetoric (e.g., the Secretary of the Arab League at the start of the War of Independence: “Murder the Jews: Murder them all”), and one, er, wasn’t. It isn’t paranoia if they really are out to get you, and anyone who poo-poos the idea that there are folks out there who wouldn’t mind seeing the Jewish population of Israel hit an early grave clearly have no right to talk about Nazis in any context. Comparisons like that are so bogus and so wildly disproportionate to what actually is happening that it is difficult for me to assume that the subconscious anti-Semitism that is latent in much of the global population is not catalyzing it.
Also, my understanding of Israeli bulldozing is that it happens in two major circumstances. Either a) to collapse weapons smuggling tunnels, or b) in response to households which have harbored suicide bombers (mostly families). The second I think is more problematic than the first (although usually the “victims” are at least voluntary accessories to attempted murder), but neither is this just random violence being strewn across Palestine. Acting as if that’s what’s going on betrays not just a simplistic view of the conflict, but a lack of desire to really deal with the issue in any kind of a sophisticated manner.
jdledell thanks for the links — I was surprised by how many intelligent comments there actually were.
While I find it alarming that Israel’s soul is being destroyed (in much the same way that I fear the US soul is vulnerable as well) I am pessimistic that any moves by Israel will help things that much. So many Palestinians are so radicalized they would present a problem for a very long time but even more importantly, they are used as pawns by the religious extremists and despots in the region. No way would any of Israel’s neighbors (including Egypt and Jordan who are officially friendly with Israel) truly welcome a lasting peace between Palestine and Israel — it would cause way too much internal dissent.
I just don’t see what other choice they have but to hunker down. Now personally I think they should focus on maintaining their soul and a good place to start would be to incorporate Israeli Arabs into society better, disengage from the Palestinians and accept that there will always be random terrorist attacks as a price for staying human.
I’m sorry to see some of the commentators exhibit so little understanding and compassion for fellow human beings. Please think about the ramifications of this attitude. For what goes around, comes around. Countries wax and wane in their political, miltary and economic power relative to others.
Some day the Arab countries will emerge from their dark ages and rebuild their power. If Israel continues to show contempt, do you really expect the Arabs to do otherwise when they have the levers of power. It’s in Israel’s long term interest to settle this now – not wait until the surrounding countries and 300 million arabs can match Israel militarily. G-d will not save us then any more than He did in 1940′s Europe.
For those of you who think what is happening in the West Bank is just minor, I urge you to go there yourself and see with your own eyes. Come back and tell me with a straight face that what Israel is doing matches the tenets of our faith.
“That’s why I don’t think my line-in-the-sand opposition to Palestinian terrorism and the concurrent belief that the Palestinian leadership must agree to live side-by-side with an Israeli state (and my belief that these issues constitute the primary obstacles to resolving this conflict) is “anti-Palestinian.â€? It’s pro-peace. And therefore, ipso facto, it’s pro-Palestinian.”
Well, ok, David, that’s a moderate position, but not exactly “pro-Palestinian”. You only mention Palestinian shortcomings, on the areas od fighting terrorism and accepting Israel’s right to exist, but where are the demands for the Israeli side? Even if the quiet majority of Palestinains would somhow mange to get rid of their terrorists and of irresponsible politicians, this wouldn’t be enough to form a stable base for peace in the region. To achieve this, there must be a Palestinian nation that is able to survive, and the most important necessary requirement for this is a continous territory. Now, leaving the Gaza problem aside (I don’t really know how this could be solved), what’s standing in the way of a Palestinian nation are the illegal settlements on occupied territory and all those secured roads (Israelis only!) and military checkpoints dividing it, not to speak of the misguided route of the security fence. These are obstacles created by Israel, and as long as this policy isn’t reversed, all the Palestians might get to live on are splinterted ‘homecountries’ like those of those bad ole times in South Africa. Anybody who thinks this ‘offer’ will establish a stable neighborhood is delusional.
“the Palestinians threw in with the Arabs in my ancestors were forced 48. They picked the wrong side and they get to deal with the consequences.”
Steve, firstly, this was 59 years ago! And secondly, who are ‘the Palestinians’ you’re speaking of? Most of them are dead now, and even in 48, there wasn’t a majortiy engaging in violent actions against the Jews. there were some warmongerers, like the Mufti of Jeruslaem, agreed, but is it a rational decision to let the children and grandchildren suffer because of the terrorism of a minority of hotheads almost 60 years ago? Especially when the other side isn’t exactly innocent (Deir Jassin!)? This is the same line of thinking that led to the (in)famous Versaille treaty and steered Europe into second world war. Today we know you can’t establish peace without the will to forgive sins of the past. Enough already.
It has to be asked, too, how does a ‘pro-Israel’ stance look like? Is it good enough to condemn arab terorism and to stand fast for Israel’s right to exist? Does one have to support illegal settlements in the occupied territories to be qualified for being ‘pro Israel’? Or do we have to go even further and advocate violent military solutions for every perceived threat against Israel, as seems to be the stance of many jewish lobbies? This question is discussed in this great story, in the not so liberal publication ‘The American Conservative’:
“Bloggers vs. the Lobby
Israel’s propaganda fortress faces a surprising new challenge.”
http://amconmag.com/2007/2007_03_12/article.html
Hat tip to Ezra Klein!
Gray: nobody’s ancestors are completely innocent and everybody has benefitted or suffered to some extent as a result of what happened to their ancestors generations ago. And so what? that’s life, we all have to play with the cards we’ve been dealt. And thus my point: the Palestinians (the ones there today) aren’t playing very well with their neighbors and, as such, I have no sympathy for them…. no more than I would have, for example, if Geronimo’s descendents were blowing up buses of schoolkids because they were still ticked off over losing their land 150 years ago.
Stevestrum – If the Palestinians threw their guns in a big bonfire and promised to be good little boys and girls, do you honestly believe Israel would let them have a viable continigous state? I don’t and the settlers dont. likud will not and neither will Kadima. Only ENORMOUS outside pressure (ie economic and military sanctions)will cause Israel to abandon the West Bank settlements. If you believe otherwise, you are being naive. When is the last time you were in Israel talking to real people.
Olmert is on his way out and Bibi is far and away the front runner in any new elections. Do you really think Bibi will give up the West Bank?
“no more than I would have, for example, if Geronimo’s descendents were blowing up buses of schoolkids because they were still ticked off over losing their land 150 years ago”
Hmm, I seem to remember that many Jews base their claim on the territories on historic precendent from 2000 years ago. According to your line of thinking, they should come over it.
“If the Palestinians threw their guns in a big bonfire and promised to be good little boys and girls, do you honestly believe Israel would let them have a viable continigous state? I don’t and the settlers dont. likud will not and neither will Kadima.”
Indeed. What’s in it for the Palestinians?
Stop blaming the powerless, the poor, the oppressed.
Chris Says:
March 15th, 2007 at 7:17 am
Stop blaming the powerless, the poor, the oppressed.
Why ? Don’t those people often resort to violence as a way of seeking power? Also, I would hardly characterize Palestinian terror groups as having no power, political or otherwise.
Yes, I would blame Hamas ,Fatah , and all other terror groups for being partially to blame.
In addition, I would argue that the Israeli reaction to such groups has been relatively restrained
Yes, but they have the right to seek the power to be free. Free to live their lives on their land as they see fit. Free to live without the constant fear of Israeli tanks and bombs.
Certainly the Israelis live in some fear, but it’s nothing compared to what to the Palestinians have to deal with. They have no money, no food, no electricity. They have no control over their destinies.
And you said “Don’t those people often resort to violence as a way of seeking power?”
What about the Israelis, don’t they use violence to secure dominion over the Palestinians while they siphon off their land, or are the news reports out of that area totally fiction?