Comments on: Economic Surge Needed http://themoderatevoice.com/11119/economic-surge-needed/ An Internet hub with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, indies, centrists, moderates, and right Sun, 27 May 2012 22:56:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Rudi http://themoderatevoice.com/11119/economic-surge-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-55084 Rudi Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:17:45 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/economic-surge-needed/#comment-55084 LOL The Four Horsemen have gathered up Ronny Reagan and their on the way...... LOL The Four Horsemen have gathered up Ronny Reagan and their on the way……

]]> By: Michael van der Galien http://themoderatevoice.com/11119/economic-surge-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-55027 Michael van der Galien Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:28:31 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/economic-surge-needed/#comment-55027 I'm with Rudi: naive ideology. Money: would they like to make money? Sure, but it was not <em>the</em> reason. Bremer, for instance, simply thought that the American multinationals should come in with their money and knowledge and start rebuilding Iraq / the economy and then Iraqis would be better of as well (it would go quickly, it would not cost the Iraqis a lot of money, etc.). Obviously that's quite the wrong approach BUT... as Rudi said "What is good at a think-tank or on a whitepaper doesn’t always translate over to the real world." I’m with Rudi: naive ideology.

Money: would they like to make money? Sure, but it was not the reason. Bremer, for instance, simply thought that the American multinationals should come in with their money and knowledge and start rebuilding Iraq / the economy and then Iraqis would be better of as well (it would go quickly, it would not cost the Iraqis a lot of money, etc.).

Obviously that’s quite the wrong approach BUT… as Rudi said “What is good at a think-tank or on a whitepaper doesn’t always translate over to the real world.”

]]> By: Rudi http://themoderatevoice.com/11119/economic-surge-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-55001 Rudi Mon, 26 Feb 2007 03:29:06 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/economic-surge-needed/#comment-55001 KR Take a breath and relax, we did the same thing to Russia and Eastern Europe with the shock-therapy to the former stae run economies. A big difference is that Poland and Hungary weren't ocupied by a foreign army. The CPA tried shock-therapy in the middle of a war zone, the Eastern European countries were secure after the Communisms fall. If Iraq was secure, the CPA policies had a slim chance, without security the chance was zero. KR Take a breath and relax, we did the same thing to Russia and Eastern Europe with the shock-therapy to the former stae run economies. A big difference is that Poland and Hungary weren’t ocupied by a foreign army. The CPA tried shock-therapy in the middle of a war zone, the Eastern European countries were secure after the Communisms fall. If Iraq was secure, the CPA policies had a slim chance, without security the chance was zero.

]]> By: kritter http://themoderatevoice.com/11119/economic-surge-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-54989 kritter Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:29:51 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/economic-surge-needed/#comment-54989 Rudi-OMG- That was stunning. It confirmed what I've always suspected- no wonder 66% of Iraqis don't care if Americans get shot! Bushco raped that country just as colonialism raped Africa. And many in our country now have the attitude that they are too savage or ungrateful to appreciate the "gift" of democracy that we gave them. Great article. The neocon wetdream was never about Iraqis voting, it was about free markets opening up, and billions going to well-connected GOP contributors who would work in the CPA or help with the reconstruction of Iraq. These people are really scum. Rudi-OMG- That was stunning. It confirmed what I’ve always suspected- no wonder 66% of Iraqis don’t care if Americans get shot! Bushco raped that country just as colonialism raped Africa. And many in our country now have the attitude that they are too savage or ungrateful to appreciate the “gift” of democracy that we gave them. Great article. The neocon wetdream was never about Iraqis voting, it was about free markets opening up, and billions going to well-connected GOP contributors who would work in the CPA or help with the reconstruction of Iraq. These people are really scum.

]]> By: Rudi http://themoderatevoice.com/11119/economic-surge-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-54975 Rudi Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:30:25 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/economic-surge-needed/#comment-54975 KR - Have you read this before? It covers the overreach of Bremmer and the US. The UN and a Shia Iraqis government will probably undo all of CPA orders. http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html Baghdad Year Zero Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia KR – Have you read this before? It covers the overreach of Bremmer and the US. The UN and a Shia Iraqis government will probably undo all of CPA orders.

http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html
Baghdad Year Zero
Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia

]]> By: Rudi http://themoderatevoice.com/11119/economic-surge-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-54974 Rudi Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:26:54 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/economic-surge-needed/#comment-54974 I'm going with naive idealogy over pragmatism. The Bushanistas overreached and tried the whole PNAC neo-liberal agenda across the board. Nobody wanted to here the downside to sweeping reform of a foreign culture and country. There was a battle over the CPA between DoD and DoState, with the idealogues there to do a grand experiment. What is good at a think-tank or on a whitepaper doesn't always translate over to the real world. Garner and others fought with Bremmer over his sweeping changes, I think the Rummy model (out quick) allowed for Bremmer's misteps. Chalabi and the villagers with flowers and candies would install a Western government and Arab teahouses would be replaced with Starbucks and KFC. Look how great things are working in the Greenzone. I’m going with naive idealogy over pragmatism. The Bushanistas overreached and tried the whole PNAC neo-liberal agenda across the board. Nobody wanted to here the downside to sweeping reform of a foreign culture and country. There was a battle over the CPA between DoD and DoState, with the idealogues there to do a grand experiment. What is good at a think-tank or on a whitepaper doesn’t always translate over to the real world. Garner and others fought with Bremmer over his sweeping changes, I think the Rummy model (out quick) allowed for Bremmer’s misteps. Chalabi and the villagers with flowers and candies would install a Western government and Arab teahouses would be replaced with Starbucks and KFC. Look how great things are working in the Greenzone.

]]> By: kritter http://themoderatevoice.com/11119/economic-surge-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-54966 kritter Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:44:50 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/economic-surge-needed/#comment-54966 Rudi, Mvdg- Do you think the move by Bremer to dismantle government-owned industry was just a blunder by Bremer, who just was trying to make sure that the Baathist government couldn't return to power, or that the whole issue of joblessness for the Iraqis was ignored because the real priority was opening up markets for American corporations? Bremer, quite honestly, did not seem that stupid to me. Rudi, Mvdg- Do you think the move by Bremer to dismantle government-owned industry was just a blunder by Bremer, who just was trying to make sure that the Baathist government couldn’t return to power, or that the whole issue of joblessness for the Iraqis was ignored because the real priority was opening up markets for American corporations? Bremer, quite honestly, did not seem that stupid to me.

]]> By: Rudi http://themoderatevoice.com/11119/economic-surge-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-54943 Rudi Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:30:12 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/economic-surge-needed/#comment-54943 MvdG The Bush failure was trying to implement these radical changes on the cheap. The ME has a history of nationalozing industry and resources(Nasser and pre-Shah). Other than Chalibi, I don't recall any Arabs calling for radical free markets in Iraq. It might of worked if: 1) The Iraqis really wanted this radical change. 2) The security situation wasn't a disater. Economics and state ownership don't matter if you fear for your life going to the market. I believe Zakaria brought this up before on ABC appearances. Riversbend had a post about Iraqis rebuilding after GW1 for pennies compared to the corruption and incompetence of the US and CPA. The change is working in the Old Eastern Europe. The change to free markets in Russia is having populist problems because of the corruption associated with market takeover. Putin and the old Soviet elites took over large segments of the economy, while the average Russian goes nowhere. MvdG The Bush failure was trying to implement these radical changes on the cheap. The ME has a history of nationalozing industry and resources(Nasser and pre-Shah). Other than Chalibi, I don’t recall any Arabs calling for radical free markets in Iraq. It might of worked if:
1) The Iraqis really wanted this radical change.
2) The security situation wasn’t a disater. Economics and state ownership don’t matter if you fear for your life going to the market.
I believe Zakaria brought this up before on ABC appearances. Riversbend had a post about Iraqis rebuilding after GW1 for pennies compared to the corruption and incompetence of the US and CPA. The change is working in the Old Eastern Europe. The change to free markets in Russia is having populist problems because of the corruption associated with market takeover. Putin and the old Soviet elites took over large segments of the economy, while the average Russian goes nowhere.

]]> By: kritter http://themoderatevoice.com/11119/economic-surge-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-54930 kritter Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:35:36 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/economic-surge-needed/#comment-54930 Maybe the capitalist bonanza for US consulting firms, headed by well-connected Republicans is what Cheney means when he talks about the "enormous successes" that we have had in Iraq. If you think about it in a narrow sense, it has been a huge windfall for some of the "Pioneers" and "Rangers" that kept the Bush campaign afloat in 2000. It certainly has not been an "enormous success" for American taxpayers or for the unemployed, angry Iraqis. I get that complaining about mistakes made in 2003 will not fix what is going on now, but I'm afraid I no longer trust Bushco to make an honest attempt to rebuild Iraq or offer a sound economic incentive plan for its citizens to aid in a national reconcilliation. It is too late for that. Maybe the capitalist bonanza for US consulting firms, headed by well-connected Republicans is what Cheney means when he talks about the “enormous successes” that we have had in Iraq. If you think about it in a narrow sense, it has been a huge windfall for some of the “Pioneers” and “Rangers” that kept the Bush campaign afloat in 2000. It certainly has not been an “enormous success” for American taxpayers or for the unemployed, angry Iraqis.

I get that complaining about mistakes made in 2003 will not fix what is going on now, but I’m afraid I no longer trust Bushco to make an honest attempt to rebuild Iraq or offer a sound economic incentive plan for its citizens to aid in a national reconcilliation. It is too late for that.

]]> By: Michael van der Galien http://themoderatevoice.com/11119/economic-surge-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-54916 Michael van der Galien Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:19:40 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/economic-surge-needed/#comment-54916 Rudi: yes this is an 'old story' on the one hand, on the other, someone is busy trying to restart those state owned companies right now, so if people would spend more attention to it... who knows, it just might change something... What I find discouraging is that this post has virtually no comments (only your comment and now mine). You write: "this is an old story that gets ignored"... but the sad reality seems to be that when it's not ignored by journalists and / or bloggers, readers don't pick it up. This is quite a major story, one that has to be addressed, if implemented what Zakaria suggests there will be considerable improvement... Anyway, I also suggest that, if people want to know what kind of mistakes exactly were made in Iraq, one reads <em>In Denial</em>. I'm rereading it right now Rudi: yes this is an ‘old story’ on the one hand, on the other, someone is busy trying to restart those state owned companies right now, so if people would spend more attention to it… who knows, it just might change something…

What I find discouraging is that this post has virtually no comments (only your comment and now mine). You write: “this is an old story that gets ignored”… but the sad reality seems to be that when it’s not ignored by journalists and / or bloggers, readers don’t pick it up.

This is quite a major story, one that has to be addressed, if implemented what Zakaria suggests there will be considerable improvement…

Anyway, I also suggest that, if people want to know what kind of mistakes exactly were made in Iraq, one reads In Denial. I’m rereading it right now

]]> By: Rudi http://themoderatevoice.com/11119/economic-surge-needed/comment-page-1/#comment-54902 Rudi Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:54:49 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/economic-surge-needed/#comment-54902 This is an old story that gets ignored, the radical privitzation of Iraqis industry. This policy, implemented by Bremer, contributed to the security problem, unemployed Sunnis Iraqis had nothing to do and their anger was directed to the US. Two generals were opposed to this policy, Garner and Patreus, one was fired and the other is the 'next great white hope' From Harpers and another link. <blockquote>http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html Baghdad Year Zero Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia The Economist described Iraq under Bremer as "a capitalist dream," and a flurry of new consulting firms were launched promising to help companies get access to the Iraqi market, their boards of directors stacked with well-connected Republicans. The most prominent was New Bridge Strategies, started by <strong>Joe Allbaugh</strong>, former Bush-Cheney campaign manager. "Getting the rights to distribute Procter & Gamble products can be a gold mine," one of the company's partners enthused. "One well-stocked 7-Eleven could knock out thirty Iraqi stores; a Wal-Mart could take over the country." A parallel battle between pragmatists and true believers was being waged within the Bush Administration. The pragmatists were men like Secretary of State Colin Powell and <strong>General Jay Garner</strong>, the first U.S. envoy to postwar Iraq. General Garner's plan was straightforward enough: fix the infrastructure, hold quick and dirty elections, leave the shock therapy to the International Monetary Fund, and concentrate on securing U.S. military bases on the model of the Philippines. "I think we should look right now at Iraq as our coaling station in the Middle East," he told the BBC. He also paraphrased T. E. Lawrence, saying, "It's better for them to do it imperfectly than for us to do it for them perfectly." http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1783179/posts After the fall of Baghdad in 2003, <strong>Petraeus </strong>and the 101st won praise for pacifying northern Iraq around the city of Mosul. Petraeus quickly went to work providing security, working with local religious and tribal leaders, and getting businesses and factories up and running again. He and other commanders were often at loggerheads with the Coalition Provisional Authority, headed by L. Paul "Jerry" Bremer. Safely inside the Green Zone, described by military wags as "the ultimate gated community," were young and/or inexperienced bureaucrats. They were too slow in sending the needed money to begin reconstruction projects or pay Iraqi workers.</blockquote> Should anyone forget, Joe Allbaugh brought 'heck of a job Brownie' to FEMA. This is an old story that gets ignored, the radical privitzation of Iraqis industry. This policy, implemented by Bremer, contributed to the security problem, unemployed Sunnis Iraqis had nothing to do and their anger was directed to the US. Two generals were opposed to this policy, Garner and Patreus, one was fired and the other is the ‘next great white hope’ From Harpers and another link.

http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html
Baghdad Year Zero
Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia

The Economist described Iraq under Bremer as “a capitalist dream,” and a flurry of new consulting firms were launched promising to help companies get access to the Iraqi market, their boards of directors stacked with well-connected Republicans. The most prominent was New Bridge Strategies, started by Joe Allbaugh, former Bush-Cheney campaign manager. “Getting the rights to distribute Procter & Gamble products can be a gold mine,” one of the company’s partners enthused. “One well-stocked 7-Eleven could knock out thirty Iraqi stores; a Wal-Mart could take over the country.”

A parallel battle between pragmatists and true believers was being waged within the Bush Administration. The pragmatists were men like Secretary of State Colin Powell and General Jay Garner, the first U.S. envoy to postwar Iraq. General Garner’s plan was straightforward enough: fix the infrastructure, hold quick and dirty elections, leave the shock therapy to the International Monetary Fund, and concentrate on securing U.S. military bases on the model of the Philippines. “I think we should look right now at Iraq as our coaling station in the Middle East,” he told the BBC. He also paraphrased T. E. Lawrence, saying, “It’s better for them to do it imperfectly than for us to do it for them perfectly.”

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1783179/posts
After the fall of Baghdad in 2003, Petraeus and the 101st won praise for pacifying northern Iraq around the city of Mosul. Petraeus quickly went to work providing security, working with local religious and tribal leaders, and getting businesses and factories up and running again.

He and other commanders were often at loggerheads with the Coalition Provisional Authority, headed by L. Paul “Jerry” Bremer. Safely inside the Green Zone, described by military wags as “the ultimate gated community,” were young and/or inexperienced bureaucrats. They were too slow in sending the needed money to begin reconstruction projects or pay Iraqi workers.

Should anyone forget, Joe Allbaugh brought ‘heck of a job Brownie’ to FEMA.

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