Mikef,
The references you cite are in regard to what I already conceded: Rudy did not go far enough in acknowledging problems on the force and wasn’t proactive in promoting training or other preventative programs. But when you talk about cases, you’re still naming the three that are common knowledge and your citing a story that says that Rudy supported the cops who were acquitted while he condemned the one who was found guilty of abuse. So I must be missing something…what’s the problem? If there are other cases that I’m not aware of, please cite them.

jjc,
That is hilarious about the New York magazine ads on buses. Thanks for the link; I can see some of the points that were made and will mull them over. Mainly I’ve felt that Rudy’s critics were the people that he made angry, people with axes to grind. I can see the personality quirks too but haven’t thought of them as being as serious as you obviously think they are. Not sure that this changes my mind about it but I’ll try to keep my mind open to being persuaded if there is enough negative evidence about him.

Senator Hillary Clinton does not seem to be winning over many new voters. Are their minds totally made up on her? If so, some conventional talking-head wisdom about her near-certainty as the Democratic Party’s 2008 nominee could prove as accurate …

It seemed to me that he DID condemn a “few bad apples� on the force but he believed that the majority of the police force shouldn’t be condemned for the bad behavior of a few.

Some specific citations would be nice.

Here’s what Time magazine had to say in their Man of the Year piece on Rudy:

Giuliani denounced the cops who brutalized Louima but defiantly backed those who killed Diallo and Dorismond. (In those cases, juries cleared the officers of wrongdoing.) After Dorismond was killed, Giuliani’s instinct to defend the police led him to attack the unarmed victim; the mayor authorized release of Dorismond’s juvenile records to “prove” his propensity for violence. The dead, Giuliani argued, waive their right to privacy. Even old friends and supporters were appalled. The man who had saved New York City saw his job-approval rating drop to 32%.

So Rudy denounced officers in the Louima case. That was a case in which a policeman bragged about sodomizing Louima. Here’s a view of Rudy’s reaction after winning reelection:

Giuliani Sneers, and Even Friends Bridle

Analysis of Mayor Rudolph W Giuliani’s sarcastic response to final report of task force he created to examine relations between New York City’s residents and Police Dept following beating and torture of Abner Louima in Brooklyn police station house; says Giuliani’s dismissive attitude leaves open question of whether he ever intended to take panel’s findings seriously, once he was re-elected; says even his supporters on panel could not mask their disappointment

And here’s another:

GIULIANI DISMISSES POLICE PROPOSALS BY HIS TASK FORCE

Mayor Rudolph W Giuliani caustically dismisses most of recommendations of task force he appointed last summer to examine relations between New York City’s residents and its Police Dept; says panel failed to recognize department’s recent success in reducing crime; Giuliani makes no mention of impetus behind task force–beating and torture of Haitian immigrant Abner Louima in Brooklyn precinct station house; nor does he discuss any of panel’s primary recommendations

In his second term, Giuliani showed himself to be a classic micromanager, unable to delegate and unwilling to share the spotlight. He had already driven out William Bratton, his victorious chief of police, in a battle over credit. Bratton’s fate was sealed when he, not Rudy, appeared on the cover of Time. Nor could Giuliani abide mockery. He went to court to try to stop New York magazine from advertising itself on the sides of buses as “POSSIBLY THE ONLY GOOD THING IN NEW YORK RUDY HASN’T TAKEN CREDIT FOR.” After Sept. 11, he threatened, in Caudillo-like fashion, to ignore the legal term limit and run for re-election again if the candidates running to succeed him didn’t all agree to let him stay in office for three extra months.

Bratton was deposed in favor of Bernard Kerik, one of many skeletons in the closet I can only hope will emerge as Rudy’s campaign gets underway.

As the campaign progresses, I think it will be seen that Rudy has a huge amount of ‘splainin to do. Maybe he could serve a useful role in some other Republican’s administration, but God help us all if he actually becomes POTUS.

Giuliani always supported the police 100% in these cases. He celebrated the acquittal after the Diallo trial. He never showed remorse for the death of an innocent man at the hands of the police. He never condemned “a few bad apples� or pushed for better training to prevent future mistakes. That’s authoritarianism.

And I’d say that’s a biased description of what happened. It seemed to me that he DID condemn a “few bad apples” on the force but he believed that the majority of the police force shouldn’t be condemned for the bad behavior of a few. He refused to declare police officers guilty until proven innocent, which is important because false accusations of police brutality do happen.

I would agree with you that he didn’t go far enough in training to prevent police misconduct; if he had done so in conjunction with taking a supportive stance toward police (again, the innocent till proven guilty stance, regardless of the political pressure to do otherwise in racially tense situations), then I think he would have gotten it exactly right.

I presume that your objections to Guiliani relate to the comparisons with Bush: stubbornness, authoritarianism, etc.

But what specifically in Guiliani’s history lead you to believe this?

from the Wikipedia site:

During [the post 9/11] period, Giuliani sought an unprecedented three-month emergency extension of his term, from its scheduled expiration on January 1 to April 1, due to the circumstances of the emergency besetting the city. He threatened to challenge the law imposing term limits on elected New York City officials and run for another full four-year term, if the primary candidates did not consent to permit the extension of his mayoralty.

Rudy thought he was the only person capable of seeing New York through the post 9/11 crisis. He threatened candidates during the campaign to that effect. That demonstrates a huge amount of arrogance and stubbornness.

a number of tragic cases of abuse of authority took place, and numerous allegations of civil rights abuses were leveled. Giuliani’s own Deputy Mayor, Rudy Washington, alleged that he had been harassed by police on several occasions. More controversial still were several police shootings of unarmed suspects, and the scandals surrounding the brutalization of Abner Louima and the killing of Amadou Diallo. In a case less nationally-publicized than those of Louima and Diallo, unarmed bar patron Patrick Dorismond was killed shortly after declining the overtures of what turned out to be an undercover officer soliciting illegal drugs. Even while hundreds of outraged New Yorkers protested, Giuliani staunchly supported the New York City Police Department, going so far as to take the unprecedented step of releasing Dorismond’s “extensive criminal record” to the public.

Giuliani always supported the police 100% in these cases. He celebrated the acquittal after the Diallo trial. He never showed remorse for the death of an innocent man at the hands of the police. He never condemned “a few bad apples” or pushed for better training to prevent future mistakes. That’s authoritarianism.

But what specifically in Guiliani’s history lead you to believe this? I see some tendencies in that direction but in my estimation he doesn’t seem to have these characteristics to a fault the way that Bush does. I’m interested to know why you view him so negatively.

I think (hope?) that the independents who are favorable to Rudy largely don’t know much about him. Know this–he won’t win New York, where a Republican has been Governor since Mario Cuomo.

His foreign policy will be very much the same as we have now under Bush. Moreover, his character is similar to Bush’s in disturbing ways–reckless and stubborn. But like Bush, he is a very good campaigner. Maybe he’d retain Cheney in his administration.

I tend to think his relatively liberal stance on abortion and gay rights will not be much of a problem for him, but I can hope his near deviant personal life will. I think he has the potential to be a worse President than Bush.

As for Rudy Giuliani, I haven’t decided yet who I will be endorsing or voting for, but he has an impressive record and on 9/11 he was the face of America. He stepped up to the plate and he showed a courage that not many in this day and age did or cou….

Oh please, I’m so sick of hearing about Rudy’s supposed heroism on 9/11. Did he run into the burning towers to save anybody? What exactly did he do that took courage? It appears the bar is set pretty low in defining courage these days.

BTW Rudy has vulnerabilities as well. Whatever the polls show about Rudy vis a vis Hillary now, doesn’t mean those numbers will hold in the course of a campaign. Of course if Rudy’s opponent is anyone other than Hillary, I would vote for him.

Indeed! Hehehehe…

As for Rudy Giuliani, I haven’t decided yet who I will be endorsing or voting for, but he has an impressive record and on 9/11 he was the face of America. He stepped up to the plate and he showed a courage that not many in this day and age did or cou….

I’m not at the point where I’d say she’s unelectable, but it is painful to see a good, decent Democratic candidates like Vilsack dropping by the wayside because of money issues. I wonder if the days when a little-known peanut farmer from Georgia could rise up from the ranks and win America’s top job are long gone…….

…

I am dissapointed about the decision by Vilsack to drop out. It makes a Clinton nomination more likely.

I just posted about the Vilsack decision. See Here