Comments on: Of Criminals and U.S. Military Traditions http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/ An Internet hub with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, indies, centrists, moderates, and right Wed, 15 Feb 2012 14:25:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: cosmoetica http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54277 cosmoetica Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:36:42 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54277 But the reality is that there have always been men who slaver to inflict harm, esp. under legal cover. They may not be the majority, but they are not an aberration. But the reality is that there have always been men who slaver to inflict harm, esp. under legal cover. They may not be the majority, but they are not an aberration.

]]> By: kritter http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54089 kritter Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:15:05 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54089 Maybe its just me, but I'd rather not think about our armed forces as a band of armed thugs. One of the things that I've admired about our military men and women, is that they've tried to help rebuild a country that has been in chaos. They may not be trained to police an area or engage in nation-building, but they've gone above and beyond what their usual duties are. Maybe its just me, but I’d rather not think about our armed forces as a band of armed thugs. One of the things that I’ve admired about our military men and women, is that they’ve tried to help rebuild a country that has been in chaos. They may not be trained to police an area or engage in nation-building, but they’ve gone above and beyond what their usual duties are.

]]> By: cosmoetica http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54075 cosmoetica Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:11:59 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54075 Alan- the point is to commit to that position. Most defeated parties capitulate long before that's necessary, but Sherman was right that war must be total or not waged. Alan- the point is to commit to that position. Most defeated parties capitulate long before that’s necessary, but Sherman was right that war must be total or not waged.

]]> By: Alan G http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54057 Alan G Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:27:26 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54057 <em>It’s all or naught- kill them all b4 they kill you</em> That seems a tad too extreme, and also impractical. In how many conflicts has the victor suceeded in killing all or even a majority of its opponents? And then there's the question of "them". Who is "them?". Enemy frontline soldiers? Enemy soldiers in supporting roles? The enemy civilian population? Armed guerillas? Unarmed supporters of the guerillas? It’s all or naught- kill them all b4 they kill you

That seems a tad too extreme, and also impractical. In how many conflicts has the victor suceeded in killing all or even a majority of its opponents?

And then there’s the question of “them”. Who is “them?”. Enemy frontline soldiers? Enemy soldiers in supporting roles? The enemy civilian population? Armed guerillas? Unarmed supporters of the guerillas?

]]> By: cosmoetica http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54056 cosmoetica Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:18:44 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54056 And, please do not reply that the mercenaries from Halliburton, et ali, are the sorts of people needed to rebuild. And, please do not reply that the mercenaries from Halliburton, et ali, are the sorts of people needed to rebuild.

]]> By: cosmoetica http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54055 cosmoetica Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:16:32 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54055 What we did was effectively a coup d'etat; we were not prepared for a real war. This is why we 'lost' Vietnam. In that sense, Goldwater was right- war is an extreme circumstance, one of the few times extreme measures are needed. It's all or naught- kill them all b4 they kill you. Once it's over, then rebuild, but one cannot rebuild while a war rages. If a nation's not ready to commit to the mass murder war requires it shd seek other remedies- such as treating 9/11 not as a war against an invisible enemy, but a criminal action. This misunderstanding of what 9/11 was is why we're here now. What we did was effectively a coup d’etat; we were not prepared for a real war. This is why we ‘lost’ Vietnam. In that sense, Goldwater was right- war is an extreme circumstance, one of the few times extreme measures are needed. It’s all or naught- kill them all b4 they kill you. Once it’s over, then rebuild, but one cannot rebuild while a war rages.
If a nation’s not ready to commit to the mass murder war requires it shd seek other remedies- such as treating 9/11 not as a war against an invisible enemy, but a criminal action. This misunderstanding of what 9/11 was is why we’re here now.

]]> By: cosmoetica http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54054 cosmoetica Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:12:21 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54054 Jim- Marlowe is right. Soldiers are trained to kill. The reason Iraq is a hellhole is because all we sent were soldiers- not diplomats, Americorps, people who knew how to rebuild an infrastructure. While the sending of soldiers was a bad choice, the lack of the real workers to go right in was an even bigger blunder- thanls W, Donny & Dick! Jim- Marlowe is right.

Soldiers are trained to kill.

The reason Iraq is a hellhole is because all we sent were soldiers- not diplomats, Americorps, people who knew how to rebuild an infrastructure.

While the sending of soldiers was a bad choice, the lack of the real workers to go right in was an even bigger blunder- thanls W, Donny & Dick!

]]> By: Jim Satterfield http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54029 Jim Satterfield Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:31:48 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54029 Marlowecan shows that he believes in the Donald Rumsfeld school of military doctrine with his post. <blockquote>Soldiers fight wars. That is their primary function…not “protecting innocent civilians.�</blockquote> This attitude is precisely why we are where we are at in Iraq today. It reflects the belief that kicking ass and then going away to let the chips fall where they may is a workable system. It isn't, of course and the failure to realize that yes, we are going to have to protect innocent civilians, the remains of their infrastructure and those who are trying to rebuild infrastructure is a major part of this fiasco. Isn't it amazing how many people haven't learned that lesson? Marlowecan shows that he believes in the Donald Rumsfeld school of military doctrine with his post.

Soldiers fight wars. That is their primary function…not “protecting innocent civilians.�

This attitude is precisely why we are where we are at in Iraq today. It reflects the belief that kicking ass and then going away to let the chips fall where they may is a workable system. It isn’t, of course and the failure to realize that yes, we are going to have to protect innocent civilians, the remains of their infrastructure and those who are trying to rebuild infrastructure is a major part of this fiasco. Isn’t it amazing how many people haven’t learned that lesson?

]]> By: Alan G http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54027 Alan G Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:19:17 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54027 <em>The NYT is again showing its absolute ignorance of the armed forces. Soldiers are not “supposed to protect� “innocent civilians�!! Clearly, the Time believes soldiers are essentially the police with bigger guns…paid for the US government to “serve and protect� the people of Iraq. Soldiers fight wars. That is their primary function…not “protecting innocent civilians.�</em> And they fight wars to protect "innocent civilians" at home from the enemy. And in a guerilla war the military must often take on police functions to defeat the enemy. Guerillas aren't stupid enough (usually) to take on a larger opponent in an open, set-piece battle To a degree, I agree with Marlowecan--soldiers are primarily trained to fight wars, not be the police. Thus, they tend to be ill-suited to humanitarian and guerilla conflicts. The NYT is again showing its absolute ignorance of the armed forces. Soldiers are not “supposed to protect� “innocent civilians�!!

Clearly, the Time believes soldiers are essentially the police with bigger guns…paid for the US government to “serve and protect� the people of Iraq.

Soldiers fight wars. That is their primary function…not “protecting innocent civilians.�

And they fight wars to protect “innocent civilians” at home from the enemy. And in a guerilla war the military must often take on police functions to defeat the enemy. Guerillas aren’t stupid enough (usually) to take on a larger opponent in an open, set-piece battle

To a degree, I agree with Marlowecan–soldiers are primarily trained to fight wars, not be the police. Thus, they tend to be ill-suited to humanitarian and guerilla conflicts.

]]> By: domajot http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54024 domajot Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:07:06 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54024 "..a way to admit young people who may have made a mistake early in life but have overcome past behavior" -- The tale of the young man 'straightened out' by a stint in the military is common enough to be a literary cliche. If the claim is that the military is now actively engaged in social policies, then this concern for the youth should not crop un only when it's diffcult to meet recruitment goals. It should be part of the permanent recruitment guidelines. Otherwise, it's simply an emergency bandaid nad no high morals apply. “..a way to admit young people who may have made a mistake early in life but have overcome past behavior”
–
The tale of the young man ‘straightened out’ by a stint in the military is common enough to be a literary cliche.
If the claim is that the military is now actively engaged in social policies, then this concern for the youth should not crop un only when it’s diffcult to meet recruitment goals. It should be part of the permanent recruitment guidelines.
Otherwise, it’s simply an emergency bandaid nad no high morals apply.

]]> By: Rudi http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54019 Rudi Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:43:48 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54019 Maybe if Simone Ledeen and Joe Kristol volenteered like McClown and Webb sons the Weakly Standards wouldn't have to be lowered. Maybe if Simone Ledeen and Joe Kristol volenteered like McClown and Webb sons the Weakly Standards wouldn’t have to be lowered.

]]> By: Marlowecan http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54011 Marlowecan Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:01:23 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54011 I'm sorry to make a third post, but I am appalled by this editorial, which is remarkably devious and calculated. Of course, the Times declares (in the liberal "We support our troops" mode) that there is a long tradition of young Americans turning their lives around in the armed forces. Then they drop a statistic like: "In the last three years, more than 125,000 moral waivers have been granted by America’s four military services." As I noted above, most of the Marine Corps waivers have been for drug convictions (mostly marijuana). Does the Times note this? No. They just drop the GREAT BIG NUMBER with no explanation of its size...and then say "We support our troops." A devious, calculated hit on the military as a stand-in for Bush. There will clearly never be anything good in America in the view of the Times until a Democrat is in the White House...and then suddenly you will hear NOTHING more about these stories. I’m sorry to make a third post, but I am appalled by this editorial, which is remarkably devious and calculated.

Of course, the Times declares (in the liberal “We support our troops” mode) that there is a long tradition of young Americans turning their lives around in the armed forces.

Then they drop a statistic like: “In the last three years, more than 125,000 moral waivers have been granted by America’s four military services.”

As I noted above, most of the Marine Corps waivers have been for drug convictions (mostly marijuana).

Does the Times note this? No. They just drop the GREAT BIG NUMBER with no explanation of its size…and then say “We support our troops.”

A devious, calculated hit on the military as a stand-in for Bush.

There will clearly never be anything good in America in the view of the Times until a Democrat is in the White House…and then suddenly you will hear NOTHING more about these stories.

]]> By: Marlowecan http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54009 Marlowecan Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:49:27 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54009 I reread the editorial again, and was astonished to note the closing comment: <em>“Without adequate monitoring and counseling, handing out guns to people who have already committed crimes poses a danger to the other soldiers they serve with and to the innocent civilians they are supposed to protect.�</em> The NYT is again showing its absolute ignorance of the armed forces. Soldiers are not "supposed to protect" "innocent civilians"!! Clearly, the Time believes soldiers are essentially the police with bigger guns...paid for the US government to "serve and protect" the people of Iraq. Soldiers fight wars. That is their primary function...not "protecting innocent civilians." The New York Times...amazing.... I reread the editorial again, and was astonished to note the closing comment:

“Without adequate monitoring and counseling, handing out guns to people who have already committed crimes poses a danger to the other soldiers they serve with and to the innocent civilians they are supposed to protect.�
The NYT is again showing its absolute ignorance of the armed forces. Soldiers are not “supposed to protect” “innocent civilians”!!

Clearly, the Time believes soldiers are essentially the police with bigger guns…paid for the US government to “serve and protect” the people of Iraq.

Soldiers fight wars. That is their primary function…not “protecting innocent civilians.”

The New York Times…amazing….

]]> By: Marlowecan http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54008 Marlowecan Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:43:13 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54008 Given that the New York Times is the source of this story, I thought it suspicious. They clearly have an agenda in playing this story. Upon further research - which is difficult as the MSM and MichaelMoore crowd have endlessly replicated this meme in recent days - things were not quite as the NYT suggests. "Army and Defense Department officials defended the waiver program as a way to admit young people who may have made a mistake early in life but have overcome past behavior. And they said about two-thirds of the waivers granted by the Marine Corps are for drug use...." Think about the implications of the New York Times editorial. If you are have a criminal conviction you are an EX-CON for life. No redemption. You are a sinner and you will be damned. It is interesting that the NYT, in its eagerness to hammer Bush by any means necessary, is tossing its liberal ideology out the window. Criminals are criminals FOR LIFE!!!! Hell, why are they even allowed out of prison. They should all be shot! Cosmoetica makes a good point. These people will be fighting, and doing dirty work. Think about the last Good War - that of the so-called "Greatest Generation" - how many of those had criminal priors? Given that the New York Times is the source of this story, I thought it suspicious. They clearly have an agenda in playing this story.

Upon further research – which is difficult as the MSM and MichaelMoore crowd have endlessly replicated this meme in recent days – things were not quite as the NYT suggests.

“Army and Defense Department officials defended the waiver program as a way to admit young people who may have made a mistake early in life but have overcome past behavior. And they said about two-thirds of the waivers granted by the Marine Corps are for drug use….”

Think about the implications of the New York Times editorial. If you are have a criminal conviction you are an EX-CON for life. No redemption. You are a sinner and you will be damned.

It is interesting that the NYT, in its eagerness to hammer Bush by any means necessary, is tossing its liberal ideology out the window. Criminals are criminals FOR LIFE!!!! Hell, why are they even allowed out of prison. They should all be shot!

Cosmoetica makes a good point. These people will be fighting, and doing dirty work. Think about the last Good War – that of the so-called “Greatest Generation” – how many of those had criminal priors?

]]> By: cosmoetica http://themoderatevoice.com/11026/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/comment-page-1/#comment-54001 cosmoetica Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:54:04 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/uncategorized/of-criminals-and-us-military-traditions/#comment-54001 Armies have always needed a % of bloodlusters to do the dirty work. Even good guy generals- MacArthur or Ike, have massive amounts of innocent blood on their hands. A look at ex-military bloggers will show that the Abu Graib mindset has always been, whether it was the Calleys in Vietnam, or the Custers of the 19th C. Armies have always needed a % of bloodlusters to do the dirty work. Even good guy generals- MacArthur or Ike, have massive amounts of innocent blood on their hands.
A look at ex-military bloggers will show that the Abu Graib mindset has always been, whether it was the Calleys in Vietnam, or the Custers of the 19th C.

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