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	<title>Comments on: Iraq and Good War vs. Bad War</title>
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		<title>By: kritter</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10920/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/comment-page-1/#comment-53263</link>
		<dc:creator>kritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;em&gt;The troops are trained not to question; otherwise no army could function. They focus on completing their mission, reardless of what the mission is. I would imagine that, once committed, all kinds of psychological phenomena kick in: an aversion to quiting, loyalty to their buddies, the pride in serving your country. The troops become deeply personally invested in the venture, and it would be torurous for them to see it as bad.&lt;/em&gt;

This is exactly right, otherwise they would not be able to keep going. I think one reason Viet Nam vets had so much mental trauma, was the belated realization by many that the war was not a moral one. Of course it didn&#039;t help that many were not honored by our country once they returned to civilian life. All of the questions that they were trained not to ask probably remain unanswered upon their return. 

In the final analysis, every war must be judged on a cost-benefits analysis. Its really hard to see that anything was gained by our experience in Vietnam, and the cost was excruciating. Unfortunately, I see Iraq in the same way. The best we can hope for is to prevent a regional bloodbath, but the cost to our military and our treasury is unsustainable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The troops are trained not to question; otherwise no army could function. They focus on completing their mission, reardless of what the mission is. I would imagine that, once committed, all kinds of psychological phenomena kick in: an aversion to quiting, loyalty to their buddies, the pride in serving your country. The troops become deeply personally invested in the venture, and it would be torurous for them to see it as bad.</em></p>
<p>This is exactly right, otherwise they would not be able to keep going. I think one reason Viet Nam vets had so much mental trauma, was the belated realization by many that the war was not a moral one. Of course it didn&#8217;t help that many were not honored by our country once they returned to civilian life. All of the questions that they were trained not to ask probably remain unanswered upon their return. </p>
<p>In the final analysis, every war must be judged on a cost-benefits analysis. Its really hard to see that anything was gained by our experience in Vietnam, and the cost was excruciating. Unfortunately, I see Iraq in the same way. The best we can hope for is to prevent a regional bloodbath, but the cost to our military and our treasury is unsustainable.</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10920/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/comment-page-1/#comment-53086</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/#comment-53086</guid>
		<description>The troops are trained not to question; otherwise no army could function.  They focus on completing their mission, reardless of what the mission is.  I would imagine that, once committed,  all kinds of psychological phenomena kick in: an aversion to quiting, loyalty to their buddies, the pride in serving your country.  The troops become deeply personally invested in the venture, and it would be torurous for them to see it as bad.

The question is: are they too close to see the forest for the trees?
And ultimately: who should make the decision reagrding war?

Another complicating factor is that in these days of an all voluntary army (I&#039;m NOT knocking it), the military families living on and around military bases have become a community set apart from the rest of us. The rest of us have not been affected in any significant way at all by this war.  This creates a disconnect between those supporting the troops with facile phrases and those living the war on a daily basis.

There is a group of Iraq vets advocating for continuing the war on the basis that to stop would dishonor the fallen troops.  This thinking seems to imply that, once started, any war must continue until a defining victory is achieved or the last man has fallen.  This is a stark measure to live by.

It&#039;s a tragic mess, no matter how you look at it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The troops are trained not to question; otherwise no army could function.  They focus on completing their mission, reardless of what the mission is.  I would imagine that, once committed,  all kinds of psychological phenomena kick in: an aversion to quiting, loyalty to their buddies, the pride in serving your country.  The troops become deeply personally invested in the venture, and it would be torurous for them to see it as bad.</p>
<p>The question is: are they too close to see the forest for the trees?<br />
And ultimately: who should make the decision reagrding war?</p>
<p>Another complicating factor is that in these days of an all voluntary army (I&#8217;m NOT knocking it), the military families living on and around military bases have become a community set apart from the rest of us. The rest of us have not been affected in any significant way at all by this war.  This creates a disconnect between those supporting the troops with facile phrases and those living the war on a daily basis.</p>
<p>There is a group of Iraq vets advocating for continuing the war on the basis that to stop would dishonor the fallen troops.  This thinking seems to imply that, once started, any war must continue until a defining victory is achieved or the last man has fallen.  This is a stark measure to live by.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a tragic mess, no matter how you look at it.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10920/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/comment-page-1/#comment-53069</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/#comment-53069</guid>
		<description>Shaun,
I find it intriguing that the troops could easily call the war a bad idea and blame it on the politicians in Washington, and yet they don&#039;t.

I would guess that it&#039;s hard to admit that you&#039;re fighting a bad war, especially if you take pride in your job, the military, your training and your country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shaun,<br />
I find it intriguing that the troops could easily call the war a bad idea and blame it on the politicians in Washington, and yet they don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>I would guess that it&#8217;s hard to admit that you&#8217;re fighting a bad war, especially if you take pride in your job, the military, your training and your country.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun Mullen</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10920/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/comment-page-1/#comment-53054</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun Mullen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:09:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/#comment-53054</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Chris:&lt;/em&gt;

Your response squares with a blogger of my acquaintance who spends a lot of time on the ground in Iraq.

He did not want to be quoted by name, but said the vast majority of troops honestly believe that the war is the right thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Chris:</em></p>
<p>Your response squares with a blogger of my acquaintance who spends a lot of time on the ground in Iraq.</p>
<p>He did not want to be quoted by name, but said the vast majority of troops honestly believe that the war is the right thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10920/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/comment-page-1/#comment-53043</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/#comment-53043</guid>
		<description>Without being a soldier it&#039;s hard to comment on what it&#039;s like to fight in a failing war.  I think more than ever our troops are connected to the political news inside of the United States. They have access to the internet and TV.

My gut feeling tells me that when you are in combat you don&#039;t really have the time to reflect on the political situation that surrounds you.  It&#039;s about your life, your squad and the enemy.  

At the same time I&#039;m sure that in your downtime you&#039;d most likely be accutely aware of the larger situation, as long as you watched more than FOX News.

How you would respond to knowing that most of the country wants the troops gone would likely stem from your overall feelings on the war itself.  If you think it&#039;s a bad war, you&#039;d be happy to leave and feel supported. Otherwise, you probably wouldn&#039;t feel so happy and probably feel betrayed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without being a soldier it&#8217;s hard to comment on what it&#8217;s like to fight in a failing war.  I think more than ever our troops are connected to the political news inside of the United States. They have access to the internet and TV.</p>
<p>My gut feeling tells me that when you are in combat you don&#8217;t really have the time to reflect on the political situation that surrounds you.  It&#8217;s about your life, your squad and the enemy.  </p>
<p>At the same time I&#8217;m sure that in your downtime you&#8217;d most likely be accutely aware of the larger situation, as long as you watched more than FOX News.</p>
<p>How you would respond to knowing that most of the country wants the troops gone would likely stem from your overall feelings on the war itself.  If you think it&#8217;s a bad war, you&#8217;d be happy to leave and feel supported. Otherwise, you probably wouldn&#8217;t feel so happy and probably feel betrayed.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun Mullen</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10920/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/comment-page-1/#comment-53039</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun Mullen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/#comment-53039</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to make a probably futile effort to get the comments back on track.

I had hoped for a &lt;em&gt;philosophical&lt;/em&gt; discussion and not a &lt;em&gt;partisan&lt;/em&gt; one.  Let&#039;s give that a try, okay?

Besides which, if the House anti-surge resolution passes, will soldiers in Iraq start bleeding blue?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to make a probably futile effort to get the comments back on track.</p>
<p>I had hoped for a <em>philosophical</em> discussion and not a <em>partisan</em> one.  Let&#8217;s give that a try, okay?</p>
<p>Besides which, if the House anti-surge resolution passes, will soldiers in Iraq start bleeding blue?</p>
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		<title>By: Rudi</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10920/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/comment-page-1/#comment-53029</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/#comment-53029</guid>
		<description>Paul is a RINO. While the anti-War may love him on this, the gold standard speeches don&#039;t sing to the choir. Paul also says it&#039;s OK for those slimy Francos to eat trigger and NOLA pets to die. KR - The leadership and the WH have made a bed.........</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul is a RINO. While the anti-War may love him on this, the gold standard speeches don&#8217;t sing to the choir. Paul also says it&#8217;s OK for those slimy Francos to eat trigger and NOLA pets to die. KR &#8211; The leadership and the WH have made a bed&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: kritter</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10920/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/comment-page-1/#comment-53027</link>
		<dc:creator>kritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/#comment-53027</guid>
		<description>Why do so many GOP Representatives keep these real issues from coming to the floor? Ron Paul is right to point out that keeping troops bogged down in a country that is exploding into a civil war, and allowing our presence in Iraq to financially bankrupt this country runs counter to our national interests. Party loyalty should not be an acceptable excuse for supporting a failing policy without criticism or examination. Defense contractors and reconstruction contractors are bleeding the national treasury dry, while we think of all the reasons why we shouldn&#039;t confront the CIC in a time of war. When the war is going as badly as this one, we owe it to the troops to confront him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do so many GOP Representatives keep these real issues from coming to the floor? Ron Paul is right to point out that keeping troops bogged down in a country that is exploding into a civil war, and allowing our presence in Iraq to financially bankrupt this country runs counter to our national interests. Party loyalty should not be an acceptable excuse for supporting a failing policy without criticism or examination. Defense contractors and reconstruction contractors are bleeding the national treasury dry, while we think of all the reasons why we shouldn&#8217;t confront the CIC in a time of war. When the war is going as badly as this one, we owe it to the troops to confront him.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10920/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/comment-page-1/#comment-53015</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/#comment-53015</guid>
		<description>Ron Paul really hits the nail right on the head.  It seems like it has to be repeated over and over again, but supporting the troops does not mean stifling political dissent. 

Aren&#039;t troops from a democracy supposed to fight for our democracy?  What&#039;s a democracy without argument and dissent?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron Paul really hits the nail right on the head.  It seems like it has to be repeated over and over again, but supporting the troops does not mean stifling political dissent. </p>
<p>Aren&#8217;t troops from a democracy supposed to fight for our democracy?  What&#8217;s a democracy without argument and dissent?</p>
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		<title>By: nicrivera</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10920/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/comment-page-1/#comment-53013</link>
		<dc:creator>nicrivera</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/#comment-53013</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;This resolution, unfortunately, does not address the disaster in Iraq. Instead, it seeks to appear opposed to the war while at the same time offering no change of the status quo in Iraq. As such, it is not actually a vote against a troop surge. &lt;strong&gt;A real vote against a troop surge is a vote against the coming supplemental appropriation that finances it. I hope all of my colleagues who vote against the surge today will vote against the budgetary surge when it really counts: when we vote on the supplemental.&lt;/strong&gt;

The biggest red herring in this debate is the constant innuendo that those who donâ€™t support expanding the war are somehow opposing the troops. Itâ€™s nothing more than a canard to claim that those of us who struggled to prevent the bloodshed and now want it stopped are somehow less patriotic and less concerned about the welfare of our military personnel.

Osama bin Laden has expressed sadistic pleasure with our invasion of Iraq and was surprised that we served his interests above and beyond his dreams on how we responded after the 9/11 attacks. His pleasure comes from our policy of folly getting ourselves bogged down in the middle of a religious civil war, 7,000 miles from home that is financially bleeding us to death. Total costs now are reasonably estimated to exceed $2 trillion. His recruitment of Islamic extremists has been greatly enhanced by our occupation of Iraq. 

Unfortunately, we continue to concentrate on the obvious mismanagement of a war promoted by false information and ignore debating the real issue which is: Why are we determined to follow a foreign policy of empire building and pre-emption which is unbecoming of a constitutional republic? 

Those on &lt;strong&gt;the right&lt;/strong&gt; should recall that the traditional conservative position of non-intervention was their position for most of the 20th Century-and they benefited politically from the wars carelessly entered into by the political left. Seven years ago the Right benefited politically by condemning the illegal intervention in Kosovo and Somalia. At the time conservatives were outraged over the failed policy of nation building. 

Itâ€™s important to recall that &lt;strong&gt;the left&lt;/strong&gt;, in 2003, offered little opposition to the pre-emptive war in Iraq, and many are now not willing to stop it by de-funding it or work to prevent an attack on Iran. 

&lt;strong&gt;The catch-all phrase, â€œWar on Terrorism,â€? in all honesty, has no more meaning than if one wants to wage a war against criminal gangsterism. Itâ€™s deliberately vague and non definable to justify and permit perpetual war anywhere, and under any circumstances.&lt;/strong&gt; Donâ€™t forget: the Iraqis and Saddam Hussein had absolutely nothing to do with any terrorist attack against us including that on 9/11.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/em&gt;

Republican Congressman Ron Paul &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2007/cr021407.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;before the U.S. House of Representatives&lt;/a&gt;, February 14, 2007</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em><br />
<blockquote>This resolution, unfortunately, does not address the disaster in Iraq. Instead, it seeks to appear opposed to the war while at the same time offering no change of the status quo in Iraq. As such, it is not actually a vote against a troop surge. <strong>A real vote against a troop surge is a vote against the coming supplemental appropriation that finances it. I hope all of my colleagues who vote against the surge today will vote against the budgetary surge when it really counts: when we vote on the supplemental.</strong></p>
<p>The biggest red herring in this debate is the constant innuendo that those who donâ€™t support expanding the war are somehow opposing the troops. Itâ€™s nothing more than a canard to claim that those of us who struggled to prevent the bloodshed and now want it stopped are somehow less patriotic and less concerned about the welfare of our military personnel.</p>
<p>Osama bin Laden has expressed sadistic pleasure with our invasion of Iraq and was surprised that we served his interests above and beyond his dreams on how we responded after the 9/11 attacks. His pleasure comes from our policy of folly getting ourselves bogged down in the middle of a religious civil war, 7,000 miles from home that is financially bleeding us to death. Total costs now are reasonably estimated to exceed $2 trillion. His recruitment of Islamic extremists has been greatly enhanced by our occupation of Iraq. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, we continue to concentrate on the obvious mismanagement of a war promoted by false information and ignore debating the real issue which is: Why are we determined to follow a foreign policy of empire building and pre-emption which is unbecoming of a constitutional republic? </p>
<p>Those on <strong>the right</strong> should recall that the traditional conservative position of non-intervention was their position for most of the 20th Century-and they benefited politically from the wars carelessly entered into by the political left. Seven years ago the Right benefited politically by condemning the illegal intervention in Kosovo and Somalia. At the time conservatives were outraged over the failed policy of nation building. </p>
<p>Itâ€™s important to recall that <strong>the left</strong>, in 2003, offered little opposition to the pre-emptive war in Iraq, and many are now not willing to stop it by de-funding it or work to prevent an attack on Iran. </p>
<p><strong>The catch-all phrase, â€œWar on Terrorism,â€? in all honesty, has no more meaning than if one wants to wage a war against criminal gangsterism. Itâ€™s deliberately vague and non definable to justify and permit perpetual war anywhere, and under any circumstances.</strong> Donâ€™t forget: the Iraqis and Saddam Hussein had absolutely nothing to do with any terrorist attack against us including that on 9/11.</p></blockquote>
<p></em></p>
<p>Republican Congressman Ron Paul <a href="http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2007/cr021407.htm" rel="nofollow">before the U.S. House of Representatives</a>, February 14, 2007</p>
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		<title>By: domajot</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/10920/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/comment-page-1/#comment-52995</link>
		<dc:creator>domajot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/military/iraq-and-good-war-vs-bad-war/#comment-52995</guid>
		<description>Good war or bad war, the issues of morale and morals don&#039;t stop when we stop fighting.

In Iraq, different ptinciples collide head on. 
The obligation to do what&#039;s best for our nation collides with the obligation to do our best for the country this war has destroyed.

I will never forget the newsreels of desperate Viet Namese trying to clamber on to the last helicopters leaving that country. Those who had collaborated with the US were left behind to die.

Now we have &#039;it&#039;s up to the Iraqis&#039; versus &#039;you broke it, it&#039;s yours&#039;. 
It&#039;s as difficult to end a bad war as it is to fight it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good war or bad war, the issues of morale and morals don&#8217;t stop when we stop fighting.</p>
<p>In Iraq, different ptinciples collide head on.<br />
The obligation to do what&#8217;s best for our nation collides with the obligation to do our best for the country this war has destroyed.</p>
<p>I will never forget the newsreels of desperate Viet Namese trying to clamber on to the last helicopters leaving that country. Those who had collaborated with the US were left behind to die.</p>
<p>Now we have &#8216;it&#8217;s up to the Iraqis&#8217; versus &#8216;you broke it, it&#8217;s yours&#8217;.<br />
It&#8217;s as difficult to end a bad war as it is to fight it.</p>
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