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Shame
Sometimes, just sometimes, I am ashamed to be European.
UPDATE I
Reader George Sorwell provides this link in the comment section of this post debunking various 9/11 myths.
UPDATE II
What was meant to be a very short post gets longer but… as long as the links are worth it, it is – of course – not a problem, and they are definitely worth it: here is Polimom’s take on the article at TiL.
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36 Responses to “Shame”
“Sometimes, just sometimes, I am ashamed to be European.” Michael
“Yet today, more than five years on, this accepted version of what happened on 9/11 is being challenged by a 90-minute internet movie made for £1,500 on a cheap laptop by three young American men.” thiislondon.co.uk
Wtf???
MvdG,
You overreact to nutcases on the fringe. This ‘conspiracy’ is the basis of numerous websites and experts in the US. While I have many Libertarian influences, a substatial segment of Libertarians belive in the 911 BS, NewWorldOrder/banks and Rumsfeld Disease. For anyone to take these crazies serious is ludacrious, like Tim McVie as a militant Republican………
I have said over and over again. that if you take a lie and proclaim it the truth loud enough and long enough people start believing the lie and denying the truth.
What disturbed me more then this movie is the NYT poll that says 3/4 ths of Americans believe in a cover up or complicity of some kind.
I guess the Liars have been screaming loud enough and long enough.
MvdG–
There was an article debunking this stuff in, I think, Popular mechanics magazine. I’ll try to find it and come back wih the link.
MvdG–
This is the Popular Mechanics article debunking the various 9/11 claims.
GS Wacky Libertarian engineers and scientists support these claims. A Wisconsin professor is a spokesamn for these nuts, gives Libertarians a bad name.
Gray:
Firstly, the one who published this article – which breathes an atmosphere of being sympathetic towards the 9/11 conspiracy theorists – is … British.
Secondly:
Thirdly:
Fourthly
It was on Dutch TV as well, which I considered to be a strange way of commemmorating those who died on 9/11/01 but perhaps that’s just me.
[examples of bias in this piece of crap at This is London:
- The official version
- It is a mantra
- Deeply disturbing questions
- Incredibly
- Or that’s how the official story goes
- Intriguingly, the narrator adds
- Then President Bush, who is also the commander-in-chief of the American military, settled down to recite My Pet Goat to a group of seven-year-olds.
He was interrupted a few minutes later by a whispered message in his ear from an aide that a second aircraft had hit the Twin Towers.
The President’s face, captured by photographers at the school, remained completely passive. He showed no sign of emotion.
Absolutely ridiculous statement. Recently I watched his reaction again, together with someone else who oppose Bush very strongly. We both agreed that Bush did not seem to know what to do but that he was touched by it: “no sign of emotion”? Confused is what we – and the entire American Studies class may I add – considered him to be. So, if not wrong, than at least highly subjective statement by TiL.
Again, clear bias at work.
George, thanks for that link I will add it for those who actually believe that Loose Change is… accurate (I’m happy to see that so far our readers consider it to be the nonsense it is).
Rudi–
You are so right!
Y’all are taking this rather a lot more seriously than I did.
Rudi, I’m actually quite sympathetic towards Libertarianism so I am sad to say that I agree with you when you write “GS Wacky Libertarian engineers and scientists support these claims. A Wisconsin professor is a spokesamn for these nuts, gives Libertarians a bad name.”
It’s a sad thing. Those people should not present themselves as ‘libertarians’ but as … well, as an assistant editor I should – of course – not break the comment guidelines myself so I’ll leave it at that.
Michael, according to the article 3 in 4 Americans now question the story. This is a rather spectacular statistic to be sure, but the whole article is more about Americans than Europeans. Americans made that movie. The fact that some people in England agree or that some Dutch people might I think is insufficient to condemn all of bloody Europe. There’s quite a lot of us, as you know. As for the number of views, I’d like to see how they count them. 491,000 people? How do you know? Was it 491,000 clicks? 491,000 individual IPs? I’ve often looked at a page from home and then checked it from work. Besides, even if 491,000 different people looked at the video, or pieces of it, it doesn’t mean that they all agree with it. I watched many clips of “Jesus Camp” and I’m VERY far from sharing the ideology. Quite frankly, I’d check this out, just to see what the whole thing was about, out of curiosity. Should I be ashamed of this?
People just love to believe the worst about the US and memebers of the administration.
Here’s my own theory: There were serious flaws. funbles and judgment lapses in the reaction to the planes. In an effort to keep errors from coming to light, documents surrounding the response were classified for far too long, and the errors have never been fully disclosed or addressed.
Secrecy plays into the hands of conspiracy theorists only too well; if you don’t have the basic informatipn and facts, you are free to construct your own. I propose that this is what happened here.
In this regard, the administration is its own worst enemy. The more secretive it is, the more suspicious people are that there are dark deeds being hidden.
Lynx this should absolutely not get the attention it gets here. I can hardly write “I am ashamed of America” since I am not American. If I were…
Anyway, I am wondering, did Spanish TV broadcast it as well? And Fahrenheit 9/11?
Not that I’m aware Michael, on either count, on television. I’m fairly certain this new film hasn’t been shown, I would have heard about it. Fahrenheit 9/11 was shown in theaters, and I, with my family, did go to see it. I don’t agree with all of it, it gets a little to conspiracy minded sometimes, but it’s not crackpot, I found it well worth watching. It wasn’t endorsed by any governing body, though.
“Only this week, the letters page of the Guardian newspaper was full of discourse about Loose Change”
Well 5 letters.
In response to an article describing the film as ‘a disease’ and people who believed in it as ‘gibbering idiots’.
3 of those letters criticise the film. And of the 2 who agree with it, one is an american.
Don’t feel bad, Michael. Every region has its loonies. Some folks still think Elvis is alive and on the run and works in convenience stores.
MvdG,
.
Here is three organizations that adhere to the 911 BS. While the advisory boards are questionabel for the first two the third has more scientific stand.
1) http://www.911truth.org/
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholars_for_9/11_Truth
3) http://www.journalof911studies.org/
The third group is a more scientific group, however many of the peer review documents aren’t much better than Bill Frist diagnosing Terry Schiavo after watching a video. These three groups have many Libertarians who might even believe in Rummy’s Disease or Aspertame Posioning – enjoy
GS In the other comment thread JS still hasn’t responded to my Israel Nukes resources
.
In another thought, the Iraq newsconference in regards to Iranian weapons smuggling is vodoo science.
Domajot- I agree with your version. It also doesn’t help that the Bush administration tried to block the creation of the 9/11 Commission, and was not very cooperative about coming forth with their side of events. Condi’s memory loss of key meetings with the intelligence committee before the attack seems fishy, as do a whole host of other lapses. I don’t believe that the administration planned 9/11- that is really wacko—but I do believe they tied the Iraq war in with 9/11 by any means that they could, and strongarmed the decision through a panicky Congress.
Hey Rudi–
In the other thread, I think Jason was just asking, not stirring up anything.
GS Not to overtake this thread, but he implied that I was crazed and Israel doesn’t have a triad of nuclear deterence. The Iranians don’t have a minture bomb, or any bomb, and no way to deliver via a missile a bomb. The Warmongers told us the Iraqis and Iran can deliver WMD’s, they can’t.
“Firstly, the one who published this article – which breathes an atmosphere of being sympathetic towards the 9/11 conspiracy theorists – is … British.”
Yes, a british enternainment website is reporting about a movie made by some young american conspiracy theorists. So what? You think, even reporting about this shouldn’t be allowed? D’oh. Well, I guess, there are always some who don’t care for the right of free speech…
“Mr Meacher, who last year proposed holding a screening of Loose Change at the House of Commons (he later changed his mind), has said of 9/11: “Never in modern history has an event of such cataclysmic significance been shrouded in such mystery. Some of the key facts remain unexplained on any plausible basis.â€?”
What’s so shocking about this? He’s about right. The 911 report has almost as much holes as the Warren report.
“And Fahrenheit 9/11?”
Fahrenheit 911 was on public TV in Germany some time ago. So what? Can you name a single fact that is wrong in Fahrenheit 911?
Gray – The 911 has holes in it doesn’t imply that planes didn’t bring down the Towers. I have listend to some of the Tinhat audio about Thermite and controlled explosions, while I don’t like Aspertame I don’t think Rummy is trying to poison us Lefties and Libertarians
. W and Rummy are just incompetents, not in cahoots with the antiChrist
Cheney.“The 911 has holes in it doesn’t imply that planes didn’t bring down the Towers.”
Yup, and I didn’t say that. And there isn’t a single theory so far that really makes sense. But the official story doesn’t make much sense, either. Too many crazy chances, and too many times the act could have been prevented. I have full understanding for people who are questioning the official story, and doing some independent reasoning of their own. Don’t forget that Watergate first sounded like a crazy conspiracy theory, too. Anybody here wants to question the patriotism of the reporters who investigated this?
Can I name a single fact that was wrong in F911?
Nope…….Because
Never saw it. Refuse to watch it and will never listen to or accept as fact anything that a person like Michael Moore attempts to put forth as the truth.
What is amazing is that I go to his website read his open letters and then hear the exact verbage, the exact spin and the exact talking points being shouted all over the internet.
I call them Michael Moore clones.
Sorry what were you saying? Oh yeah. Nope have no clue what is in F911.
Does anyone have a link to this NY Times poll? I’ve been looking all over for it and havent found any evidence of it.
I did find a poll conducted by CBS and the NYT during September of 2006 that dealt with some 9/11 and terrorism issues. There were no questions about any suspicion of the U.S. government of not telling the truth about 9/11.
So if anyone could just point me in the direction of this poll it would be greatly appreciated. I mean it would prove the poll exists, but more importantly allow us to see how the question was phrased… a lot of poll results depend on how they phrase the question. And seeing as how the NYT is a major news source, they do publish the results of their polls, and it should be available somewhere.
Rugger – You peaked my interest, it seems the lads at the UK website have taken a NYT poll out of context. From MvgD link to the UK article:
As you mentiuon, the NYT web link to stories about their polls do not back up the ‘artistic license’ of the lads from the UK. Seems this thread is much ado about nothing -LOL
.
Rugger – A search of the 09-06-2006 poll found no questions that ask a question that the UK lads claim in the 3 out of 4 doubt 911.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20060821_poll_results.pdf
Seems we have been played like fools!!
Not only was there no question in that poll matching or even vaguely resembling the one that the three fruitcakes claim but this statement in the article strikes me as blatantly inaccurate and misleading:
Really? I follow a lot of news and current events. I am just not aware of enough discussion on this to even come close to being described as a “furious debate”.
“A search of the 09-06-2006 poll found no questions that ask a question that the UK lads claim in the 3 out of 4 doubt 911.”
The moviemakers are doing serious research on 911 a huge disservice by spreading a bogus poll. This is even more idiotic, since a simple google search reveals that in fact it’s about a third of Americans who suspect governement involvement, not 75%. This shows the problem with conspiracy theorists: It’s difficult to distinguish the serious ones from the lunatics and those who’re only in it to make a fast buck.
Rudi: thank you very much for that info!
Morning, Mike.
Well, how about these conspiracy theorists:
9/11 Widows Keep on Asking the Tough Questions
Do you think this is shameful, too?
Gray,
There is a difference between questioning the competence of actions taken or not taken and claiming that the U.S. government were the actual culprits behind 9/11. I don’t see the widows making the latter claim.
Sometimes, just sometimes, I am ashamed to be European.
Well, atleast your not french